Ringing Forums

we have to ring with the band we have — John de Overa

Yes, we do. And it’s far more difficult to get results with people who didn’t have the ideal skills grounding. But if we keep teaching new ringers the same way we will always be in that position.

I know of one teacher who point blank refuses to teach other than primarily by rhythm, with ropesight second, and CCs are banned. It causes all sorts of problems as soon as they ring anywhere else. — John de Overa

That is clearly wrong. A rounded ringer needs all the skills. I don’t advocate only teaching rhythm and listening, I advocate establishing it first, so it can get a foothold. We are visual animals, and if the first experience of trying to ring a bell related to anything external is being told to ‘pull after that rope’, a reactive action at the last minute, it’s hardly surprising they don’t tend to think several seconds ahead based on what the bell feels like, and find it too difficult to concentrate on a rather confusing sound, at a different time from when they ‘pull’, and which feels like a distraction from the already difficult task of ‘follow that rope’.

as they start by ringing rounds, seeing / following is inevitable — John de Overa

Only if you choose to do things in that order. People I teach become competent ringing rounds before they have to integrate ropesight and coping with the variability of other ringers.

.

CCs are the next step and they are all about following bell numbers. — John de Overa

Which is one of the reasons Gordon Lucas said they were not a sensible step on the route to learning tithe skills to ring methods. Read what he said in the Kaleidoscope book - the rationale not just the popular exercises.

We also drill in to people from the very start that ringing by "Follow X" — John de Overa

We shouldn’t (and I don’t). Blame the teachers not the pupils.

you can't force people, particularly adults — John de Overa

Agreed. But you can expose them to the right things in the right order. I have never had a pupil who couldn’t progress from solo bell control to rounds with a simulator with no visuals.

we have agreed as a band that we want to learn and get better together, — John de Overa

I think that’s is fundamental. One of the commonest reasons I hear for why bands don’t achieve much is that they aren’t interested in progressing. That’s normally couched in terms of not wanting to learn fancy methods but in practice i think it imbues everything, including even ringing simple methods well. And once the collective mindset is established it affects new ringers who either adopt it themselves or leave.

we get people ringing Rs & CCs with the band as soon as possible — John de Overa

How soon? Before they can ring steadily and hold to a rhythm?

they then tend to freak out if they can't see bells — John de Overa

That tends to confirm that they have been conditioned to rely on ‘seeing who to follow’ and then making a last minute action just after they do so, which undermines any sense of rhythm they might have acquired. And when they fail to look at the right rope, or it’s not there, they have no means’s of knowing where to place their next blows, even approximately.

it's an incorrect assertion anyway. Abel (and I believe all the other simulator packages) support a "moving ringers" display, — John de Overa

You don’t have to turn it on, and when I started using simulators to teach I didn’t have a screen, let alone pictures of ringers.
For initial teaching I never do turn on visuals because my aim, as stated previously, is to help the learner develop confidence in using their rhythm and listening skills before they are exposed to the visual element, which tends to dominate and crowd them out.

But I think visuals do have their place, — John de Overa

Agreed vision has its place. Ropesight is a most valuable skill for understanding what is happening around you.
Ironically the focus on following the rope in front, which many people teach and learners tend to adopt if thrown in at the deep end without already having developed rhythm an listening, inhibits the development of effective ropesight because narrowing the vision onto individual ropes makes it hard to see the overall pattern.

on a bell with a tied Clapper. You ring a bell whilst Abel simulates the other bells. At first this is very difficult to do, because you are ringing from sound alone, without seeing the position of other ropes. — Brian Plummer

I think that is more true of people who have already rung with other people and become dependent on seeing other ropes. I get learners ringing with the simulator on their own before the try to ring with other ringers, and it doesn’t seem to cause a great problem.
Doing that let’s them develop confidence in their rhythm and listening in a controlled environment before they have to cope with the additional task of making sense of lots of ropes, and the pressure of ringing with lots of other people.
IMHO ringing simulators are grossly under utilised. They are cheaper to acquire, and easier to use than when I first rang with one over 45 years ago.

tune ringing may be an anathema to those change ringers steeped in our Victorian culture, — Roger Booth

Current ringing culture certainly inherits some features from the Victorians, notably service ringing and territorial societies, but that hardly applies to change ringing. The Victorians promoted it but it began a couple of centuries before them

not many that have gone beyond just trying a cafe at the back of the nave — Simon Linford

We have that, following recent restoration to make the space more suitable for community use. We also hire the church for a lot of concerts and other events.
Wokingham Methodist church also extended its buildings to form the Bradbury Centre, of which the church proper is just a part, and used for some events.
Adelaide Baptist church in Glasgow used to run a B&B in its buildings, which I used for many years, and other things. The B&B stopped several years ago but I don’t know why.

at each practice people write their names in the attendance book. We’ve done that for years, I suspect well before all safeguarding came along.
Sometimes we also write down what was rung.
That’s the easy bit. Totting up the number at each event is easy too s we can compare over the years. When we were thinking about the best time to for Saturday practices it helped to see whether morning, afternoon or evening got better attendance. (There was no pattern, all had high and lows.)
The analysis by individual took quite a bit of work to transcribe the information into a spreadsheet. I first did it to compare pre and post Covid. Having got the framework in place it was less effort to add another year.

There's actually a more up to date version of that analyais at: http://odg.org.uk/sdb/documents/misc/MemberAttendance24.pdf

it’s a lot of hard work by the ringing masters and others. The number of practices built up over the last few decades. 40-50 years ago we just had the monthly Saturday practice (minus AGM and competitions) but they lasted 3 hours, whereas now they only last an hour and a half.
OTOH we often has over 30 ringers present in the 80s (I suspect not all present for the whole time, but it’s a long time ago and I can’t remember). Now we get smaller numbers attending, see: https://odg.org.uk/sdb/documents/misc/MemberAttendance23.pdf

this is nothing to do with world heritage status. I suggest you start it as a new topic. That will make it much easier for everyone to keep track, and ensure your question gets read by people interested in it, who might not be interested in the world heritage question.

how many opportunities are you providing each month? — John de Overa

Slightly more including one or two youth ringing activities (shared with adjacent branches). The monthly plan includes elementary, intermediate, advanced and daytime practices plus 3rd Saturday, which most months is a practice except for AGM and two striking competitions. However, not all practices are held. We check for numbers in advance and cancel if there are too few. That avoids anyone turning up and being disappointed. See: http://odg.org.uk/sdb/diary/

What sort of level are each of those? — John de Overa

Elementary has a lot of exercises to help develop core skills (ART based) as well as hunting and s8m0le methods. Intermediate was spun off as a separate practice for those who had progressed most in the elementary. It is more focused with each practice working on specific methods beyond PB, and also including 8 bell ringing. Advanced is from Stedman 7 and TB up to S8.

there needs to be focussed practices for all levels — Martyn Bristow

Our branch runs elementary, intermediate and advanced practices each month (as well as a weekday afternoon and Saturday practice for all levels). The most successful is the elementary, with strong attendance. The intermediate grew out of that (to take forward the more advanced cohort) and is more focused. The advanced practice used to be S8 but was broadened after Covid when numbers dropped.
All of them provide for things people can't get in their own tower. The slight exception is the advanced practice, which although it is all 'advanced' is less advanced than the top end of our weekly tower practice. Many of our ringers don't attend branch practices - a bit chicken and egg..

in my view general branch practices shouldn't contain very much advanced ringing — Charlotte Boyce

I understand the sentiment but I think it’s too simple. I think all practices should include as mix that gives everyone present something of benefit. Obviously given the time available and people present that might entail some compromises but should still be the aim. With a lot of less capable fringes present that’s will mean a lot of basic stuff, but even then it can be a mix that offers individuazlsx and other both comfort zone and challenging opportunities. And don’t forget that the more expedrtienced ringers you rely on to provide solidazrity for those Lees’s capaable also need motivating. Include something for their benefit too. Quite apart from being fair, it will make them more likely to come to the next one.

until those people are gone, ringing will continue on its death spiral. — John de Overa

And what do you expect to be left behind if/when they have all gone?
In our tower the ‘top end’ ringers that you want to depart range in age from under 18 to over 80 so it will be a long wait.

we too run tower tours, both small groups and open days like last weekend when we had well over 100 visitors. But the original question was what is more successful at raising awareness. I don’t know whether an open day is more or less successful doing that than for example the series of half a dozen whole page articles I wrote for the local paper a few years ago, or the hundreds of school cildren i give assembly talks to, or the dozens of articles on many different aspects of ringing in the parish magazine, or the talks i have given to lots of community groups.
I have no way of measuring which of the have the greatest impact. In some cases I know the number of participants but not others, but impact is about more than just being present.

the majority have ringing parents — Simon Linford

Yes, but in the case here he didn't start long after his mother, rapidly overtook her and now helps to support her.