Ringing Forums

We have an 11 year old who controls the bell beautifully, he's just starting to ring rounds. He started last May and if he sticks at it I'm sure will be an excellent ringer. We have a 62 year old who started in November and has almost caught up with him. — John de Overa

John, I do hope this comparison isn't suggesting that 62 is old! I'll take your example as illustrating that it's not. :-)

I agree with 2 ringers per bell for the maximum size of a band (for 8 bells or less). Actually, not just the maximum size, but I would say that's the ideal size. Less than that and the combination of holidays, illness, other commitments, etc can easily leave you short. More than that and all the members of the band might start feeling surplus to requirements and not get enough rope time at the practices, especially the less experienced, which increases the chances that some of them drift away. If it's considered a problem that too many come to service ringing most weeks, then have a rota and/or "lend" some to neighbouring towers to help them out.

The reason I think you should have more than 1.5 ringers per bell is I've seen bands of that size collapse surprisingly quickly when just a few people stop ringing for whatever reason. You definitely need more ringers than bells to cover absences, of course, and if just 2 or 3 people stop ringing in the same year, you're suddenly in trouble if you aren't already teaching some replacements. I.e. 2 ringers per bell still leaves an adequate 1.5 ringers per bell after some of them have left the band.

So, my recruitment/teaching rule of thumb is: If the band currently has less than 2 ringers per bell then teach just 2 new recruits per year until you do have 2 ringers per bell. This way, there isn't a sudden influx of lots of new people, which can be a little disruptive to the social cohesion and ringing quality of the existing band, and the 2 recruits can have more time and attention focussed on them than if they were part of larger cohort. Hence they should progress quicker and be good steady ringers ready to help the next recruits.

If you're lucky enough to have more than 2 people wanting to learn, ask them if they wouldn't mind joining the waiting list and explain how it's better to teach, for example, 2 at a time for one year than 4 at a time for two years. The more learners you have at the same time, the slower the progress will be for each of them, which might also lead to a retention problem. Even if you're starting a new band from scratch, just teach 2 at a time until they can control a bell well and then teach the next 2. Arrange for visitors to come to the practices to support the first 2, then 4, then 6...

This is highly generalised, of course. Local circumstances and the aptitude of the recruits could well lead to very different timescales but I would strongly urge sticking to the 2 at a time principle. People will probably be prepared to wait if they understand the reasons for it.

The above advice comes from my experience of starting a new band from scratch at an eight bell tower in 1981 and then being Tower Captain there for 32 years until I moved away. There were 16 ringers left in the band after my ringing family of four relocated and the band is still going strong to this day.

Be kind
Be patient
Be encouraging
Be fair
Be welcoming
Be confident
Be good humoured
Be flexible
Be reliable
Be very grateful if someone else wants to do it instead.

I've just got access to Google Bard, so I thought I would pass on your question. I entered "Suggest some questions about English church bell ringing" and here are the questions it suggested:

• What is change ringing?
• How many bells are typically used in change ringing?
• What is the difference between change ringing and handbell ringing?
• What are the different types of bells used in change ringing?
• How long does a quarter-peal or peal last?
• What is the history of change ringing?
• Why is change ringing popular in England?
• What are some of the benefits of change ringing?
• What are some of the challenges of change ringing?
• What is the future of change ringing?

I fired "What are some of the benefits of change ringing?" back at it and this was the answer:

Here are some of the benefits of change ringing:

• Physical exercise: Change ringing is a physically demanding activity that can help improve strength, flexibility, and coordination.
• Mental stimulation: Change ringing requires concentration and focus, which can help improve mental agility and memory.
• Socialization: Change ringing is typically done in groups, which can provide a sense of community and belonging.
• Stress relief: The repetitive motion of change ringing can be calming and soothing, making it a great way to reduce stress and tension.
• Sense of accomplishment: Learning and mastering a new skill, such as change ringing, can boost confidence and self-esteem.

Change ringing is a unique and challenging activity that can offer a variety of benefits. If you are looking for a way to improve your physical and mental health, as well as your social skills, change ringing may be a good option for you.

All quite impressive stuff, I think!

I thought the programme was very good and well worth listening to. Not directed at existing ringers, of course, but great for telling everyone else a little about ringing in a very positive and interesting way. I'd be surprised if it doesn't result in a little recruitment here and there.

I would suggest Ringing Room as an answer to the original question. (Other online ringing platforms are available, such as Ding.) Ringing Room has a very low barrier to getting started. People can join in from the comfort of their own home and make an authentic tower ringing sound very easily, just push a key at the right time. I know Ringing Room isn't anything like tower bell ringing, but new recruits won't be bothered by this – they haven't yet learnt to ring tower bells. Ringing Room allows them to learn listening skills, good striking, ringing by places and learning/practising method lines, which are all skills required in the tower as well. The additional skills needed to be able to move from Ringing Room to tower bells are handling a bell (obviously), ropesight and rhythm. (Ringing by rhythm is partially achievable in Ringing Room with a good band and fast ringing, but it's nothing like tower bells.)

Ringing Room is much more reliable these days than when it was first introduced. This is due to improvements on the technical side and a much reduced load on the servers. I still run a weekly Ringing Room practice to help tower bell ringers learn the skills of ringing by places, achieving good striking by listening, and practice their method knowledge. It's also a good social occasion to meet up with ringers you wouldn't otherwise see very often, if at all. If you haven't tried it recently, or at all, I can strongly recommend giving it a go. It can also be used to supplement bell handling practices for new recruits. Please don't be put off by it being "nothing like tower bells". Handbells are nothing like tower bells either, they're just a different "platform" for ringing and this is what Ringing Room is – an alternative, and entirely different, platform for ringing on. Lastly, being an online virtual platform, Ringing Room is an excellent way to engage the younger generation in ringing. They live a lot of their lives online and ringing in the virtual world will seem completely normal to them.

Please do. I produced this years ago to try to explain to people why plain hunt should be rung as a zig-zag line with pointy ends. This was to persuade them to keep the backstroke lead quick and "on time" rather than late. It's following the conventional plain hunt line that causes people to hold up a bit on the backstroke lead and ring it late.

You may be interested to see Stedman Triples written out with a handshake gap. On the attached PDF the blue line is open handstroke leading and the superimposed red line is closed handshake leading.

I'm so glad you asked that. We're going way off topic now, but take a look at the attached PDF. It doesn't address the speed of ringing issue, but it does show the true rhythm of plain hunting with an open hand stoke lead, which I thought you might find interesting. Count the small grey squares between one row and the next, constrained by the vertical black lines.

I agree that learning the rhythm of plain hunt on a tied bell is very useful, as I said:

Ideally, all the necessary bell control skills could be learned at separate tied bell practices where the learner can practice going through the motions of Plain Hunt focussing on how to achieve the required changes of ringing speed...

I like your idea of shadowing another ringer. I've used this on occasions but not with a simulator because I didn't have one at the time. The other ringer just rang the rhythm of plain hunt from experience with the learner shadowing, with both bells silenced.

The ropesight I mentioned is not so much about seeing who you are currently following as seeing who you are going to follow at the next pull. Being able to discover this "just in time" while ringing stops beginners trying to learn all the numbers in advance. Correct rhythm will get you into the right place, of course, but knowing the bell you're going to be following at the next pull is great for a beginner's confidence and, if the rest of the band is good, will also help them to actually ring in the right place with good rhythm. Ropesight and rhythm reinforce each other.

Regarding the other problem you mention – the rest of the band not being willing or capable of helping... When I had this idea, I had in mind separate training sessions to go through the steps, not so much doing this at a normal practice night. Maybe organise a mini training day for the learner (or at most two learners) with a willing and capable band of helpers from the local area. A two hour morning session followed by a relaxed and friendly lunch and then a two hour afternoon session should be enough time to go through all the steps and start trebling to touches of Grandsire and Plain Bob. Plain hunting mastered in just one day! :-)

- V&L workgroup to take on listening and striking project

May I take this opportunity to mention Julian Back’s excellent web app: tadhill.com/ringing . I have been using this for many years to improve my own listening skills and to help others improve theirs.

To begin with, I would suggest setting the bell sounds to Crediton, both the minimum and maximum number of errors to zero and the method to rounds. (Look in Settings for most of these.) With these settings, the Listening section rings perfect rounds and you can move the sliders to create striking errors. This allows you to “see” as well as hear the errors. I find this can sometimes be an interesting exercise during a practice. Set up one or two medium size errors, let everyone listen for a minute and then ask each person in turn what the errors are. They need to give three pieces of information for each error: which bell(s), handstroke or backstroke, early or late. When everyone has given their answers show them the screen so they can “see” the answer(s). Then let everyone listen again before changing the errors for another go.

For personal practice, set the minimum and maximum errors to non-zero values and the app will introduce some errors into the rounds. You then move the sliders to undo those errors, so the sliders end up showing the opposite of what the initial errors were.

There are other settings to explore and other ways to use the app.

It will be interesting to see what the V&L group come up with by way of a listening skills app but in the meantime I strongly recommend tadhill.com/ringing.

I couldn't agree more about well appointed ringing rooms. I consider this a major factor in helping to recruit and retain ringers. I think it's not just about the items and facilities in the ringing room, but also how clean, tidy and well decorated it is. Who wants to spend their evenings in a dusty, gloomy, untidy ringing room? Wherever possible, the ringing room should be as clean, tidy, well lit and as well decorated as an average living room. Basically just look around the ringing room and ask "Is this a pleasant and comfortable place to be?" Does it seem inviting when you walk in? If not, what could be changed to improve things? Perhaps just a general clean and tidy, some wax polish on any woodwork, a new carpet? Of course, every ringing room is different but I've rarely seen one that hasn't got room for improvement.

It would be interesting to confirm if the pull exerted by a skilled ringer wasn't that different between fast and slow. — John de Overa

I'm sure this is true, and I'm also sure that Stephanie Pattenden or Julia Cater (and many others, of course ) would be able to confirm it. :-) But you're quite right that it would be very interesting to measure the forces accurately with both experienced and inexperienced ringers ringing the same thing.

One of the reasons bells are hung the way they are is so that it is possible to change the speed with little effort. In very broad terms, at the point of the swing where speed adjustment is made, the bell is moving mostly horizontally and very little vertically, so the ringer mostly has to just tweak its momentum and not so much its potential energy. I.e. to go faster you cut short the bell's movement at the end of its swing and this only changes the peak "height" of the bell by a very small amount. And because the bell is moving slowly at the end of its swing when it's near the point of balance, you don't need to change the distance of its swing very much at all to make a significant difference to the timing of the swing.

Talking of the physics, something to bear in mind when ringing is that Work Done = Force x Distance, so even if there's quite a bit of work to be done to remove energy from the bell (to make it ring quicker) or add energy (make it ring slower), this can still be achieved with a small force if that force is applied over a large distance. I think this is the main technique required for ringing with little effort, that and never letting the bell go significantly beyond the point of balance. Sorry, waffling on and straying off topic, but it's sort of related.

That sounds very interesting, do you have any details that it would be possible to share?

The ultimate pullometer:

https://www.opusds.com/bellsim

Trouble is, there's only of them. And, I suppose, because the relationship between rope tension and bell speed is programmed, it can't really answer the question of how much, if any, pulling harder while the rope is moving downwards makes that same stroke ring any sooner on a real bell. However, it's a fantastic tool for measuring the tension in the rope during the entire ringing cycle for each stroke. See:

https://www.opusds.com/bellsim-images-traces?pgid=kxa61cau-db59180a-3075-4a64-b407-952391ff33a3

I'm immensely impressed with this device. What a fantastic teaching tool as well. Imagine being able to dial-down the force of gravity to slow the whole thing down at first and gradually work up to full speed. And the safety cut outs virtually eliminate the risk of injury.

Thank you for the link to your very interesting and entertaining article. I remember watching this episode when it was first shown, but haven't seen it since. I've been teaching myself to double handle over the last few decades and I'm proud to say that once my local band came second in a 6 bell striking competition with only 5 of us in the band. :-)

I do think all ringers should learn call changes, called both up and down with bell numbers, so they can join in with this ringing when visiting other towers, just not learn call changes before plain hunt. Very occasionally I call changes by places as an exercise and just as a bit of a change to normal, but even experienced method ringers can find this quite a challenge.

So, I certainly wouldn't want to dismiss call changes at all, they definitely have their place in ringing generally and can sound excellent if well struck and called rapidly to a system. My own favourite is "Sixty on Thirds" called every other handstroke or every handstroke. This can certainly keep some very experienced ringers on their toes. http://www.ringing.info/plp/heatonweb_ccpeals.htm

To answer the question, for the towers around the Lancaster Branch of the LACR it's £20 a rope. The bad news, for us, is that it's the local tradition to ring before and after, so that's not very much per hour. But as I see it, the amount is really just to recompense out of pocket expenses while we cheerfully indulge in our hobby and congratulate the happy couple in the traditional way. Or is it a fee for a skilled professional service?

I do agree that each tower should just set its own fees as they deem appropriate and not just fit in with others in the area. Aren't cartels illegal anyway? :-)

I certainly agree with Samual about keeping the day as relaxed as possible. I might be giving my age away with the following thoughts, but my formula for the perfect outing is to arrange 4 towers and keep them as geographically close together as possible. It think it's better to have 4 towers for 1 hour each than 5 or 6 towers for 45 minutes each. The first tower starts at about 10.00am and the last one ends at about 5.30pm. There's usually a bit of a journey to get to the outing's area and home again, so minimise travelling during the day and leave plenty of time for that travelling.

Also, have a long lunch break, at least 1.5 hours plus travel time. This is the main social part of the day, so allow plenty of time for people to have a pudding and/or coffee and to mingle/chat. There's a huge difference between people feeling rushed to leave the pub to get to the next tower, probably arriving late and resentful of missing pudding or coffee, or feeling that they've had plenty of time in the pub and are actually getting a little impatient to be ringing again. The difference is in the enthusiasm levels for ringing at that first tower after lunch. Have the lunch stop as close as possible to the next tower – within 5 mins walking distance is ideal, as long as it's a really good pub and the landlord agrees that you can leave the cars in the car park while you ring at the church.

Lastly, but not leastly, it's usually very much appreciated if at least the first and last towers of the day have toilet facilities available.