Ringing Forums

A lot of this thread is bad experiences followed by answers about existing resources which demonstrate better ways of approaching continuous learning.
Which means that the issue is not that there isn’t a known set of techniques to support learners to continue to progress but that some towers are not making use of these resources and get stuck or prefer another way of doing it, despite this leading to frustration for at least some of the ringers in the tower.

Tristan says that lacking humility to unpick flawed teaching is part of the problem and I think this is probably the fundamental issue.
Tower captains who teach ‘badly’ or don’t use the many resources available to think about how to help ringers to continue to progress (or are happy to keep everyone ringing Sunday morning called changes forever) are able to continue and, as volunteers, are unlikely to be pushed to change their ways.

The nature of ringing as a grass roots organisation at a very local level, with everyone a volunteer, means it is unlikely that this will change without two sets of effort - the local effort to address with a specific tower captain and band whether change is needed and the global effort to ensure the resources are there AND that there is support to understand how to make use of the resources, perhaps with more training courses for tower captains and ringing masters.

Ringing can’t realistically dictate a set of standards for how a practice should be run but can try to spread best practice and if the issue is the tower leadership then the next big course to be considered would be how to be an effective tower captain rather than how to ring bob doubles (again) as this should, in theory, have a longer term impact on gradual progression for more ringers.

Currently it can to be hard to find a volunteer willing to lead a tower when one moves away, gets ill, etc and many towers struggle when the previous main organiser is no longer there so if there are towers where the leadership is creating frustration for the ringers then the volunteer needs to come from within the band otherwise it won’t change.

ART has a simple starting point exercise for tower captains: http://ringingteachers.org/survival-and-recovery-toolbox/tower-captains-guide/tower-captain-type - I have seen other training courses around this same kind of idea so it’s hard to see what else needs to be done at the more global level to try to support change for the towers where ringers are frustrated.

Is it about raising the need for support with the district / branch / association / guild to address the frustrations of the band?
Is it that most of the band are happy to continue as they are, rather than cause upset by looking for change?
Maybe there is an element of ‘growing out of’ one practice where you can now only support and no longer progress and needing to find the next practice in your area which can keep you progressing?

I read the article in the Ringing World (29 Sept, page 950) about Ringing 2030 and the focus on effective recruitment to boost overall numbers of ringers.
One of the most active threads on this forum is about older learners and reasons why we should not assume that older learners don’t want to / can’t keep progressing into method ringing.

The article on 2030 recruitment makes the assumption that we need to recruit young ringers if we are to rebuild the overall number of ringers, demonstrating that the ageing population of existing ringers will gradually lead to a lower overall population.
I think this misses the point that we have lots of older learners and many of them still have 30 years of ringing ahead of them when they learn.

I hope that the recent trial survey of ringers shows that we have many ringers over 40 and over 60 who have been ringing less than five years and less than ten years so there is no obvious reason to assume that if you don’t learn under 20 (or under 40) that you won’t become a regular ringer who builds experience and rings for many years to come.
I think we should be careful not to focus exclusively on recruiting young ringers and be careful not to leave older learners feeling unwanted, uncared for or disregarded when we look at the future of ringing for 2030 and beyond.

Identifying how to focus our resources to recruit the ‘types of people who we think will make good and useful bellringers’ should not be about age specifically but wider considerations of commitment, enjoyment and appreciation of bellringing.
Did the trial survey show any trends in educational subjects? Should we be asking ringers about their other hobbies / regular activities? How do we know whether someone is more likely to definitely enjoy and commit to bellringing?

From my experience it is hard to tell until someone has been along three or four times and then becomes fairly obvious.
If you then ‘lose’ them later it is because they are moving house, have family responsibilities, change job, etc (when hopefully they will still be ringing somewhere) or due to illness (when they can no longer ring or no longer climb the stairs). This can happen at any age and young ringers are more likely to be moving around and many ringers go through a non ringing phase when establishing a career, a family, etc.

I don’t think the teaching pathway is any different based on the age of the learner, I think the opportunity given in local towers is a factor but I also think ringers range hugely from those most interested in the music or the community aspect to those wanting to do ‘homework’ outside the tower and travel to a variety of practices for opportunities to learn and progress in method ringing.
I can think of a three mature learners in my local area, two of whom really pushed and took every opportunity and rang their first quarter peal of plain bob doubles inside within two years of first touching a rope and the third who was something like six months later. But they were all ringing three or more times a week, doing their homework and asking for support to keep them progressing. Four years later one has since rung surprise Major quarter peals, another surprise minor and the third is now ringing touches of plain bob triples or trebling to surprise minor so progress varies for a variety of reasons.
I don’t know whether London is unusual but there are very few towers here which focus heavily on called changes, most are looking to get people to cover and then plain hunt and then treble and then ring methods inside and this is definitely harder if there are less steady support ringers than progressing ringers at a practice night but I can’t think of a practice night which spends more time on called changes than methods.

Yes, there was quite a lot of feedback on the survey design, some specific questions and the flow of questions.
The tower captains survey needs some adjustments for towers without a regular band (as having said you don’t have a regular practice you were still asked lots of questions about what you practice and what teaching you do, etc) and the ringers survey needs to allow for ‘unattached’ ringers.
I have passed the feedback I received on, in detail, and I’m sure the other trial areas will have done the same so an improved version can be used by other Associations and Guilds, if they want to add to the volume of data available for analysis.

Another possible reason for the younger learners ring more often and more advanced methods could be that these ringers are more likely to complete a survey.
In the Middlesex we sent the survey to our email list and asked tower contacts to send it on to other band members. Many people on the email list will be more active and more advanced ringers who ring more often because that’s why they want to receive the emails about district and association activities so this could influence the results.
Someone who learnt young but still ‘just’ rings on Sunday morning, happily enough, is less likely to have seen the survey and less likely to see a reason to complete a survey to help a national organisation which doesn’t really impact them think about the future.

Another possible factor which could be interesting to explore is whether it is true that people who learnt in the ‘golden age’ of ringing past were better supported to reach advance method ringing and therefore learning young thirty plus years ago was easier and better supported where learning young now might not be so much.
Having met a couple of returning ringers, who learnt thirty plus years ago and came back as Ring for the King returners, it seems that plenty of people also learnt to ring in years gone by and gave up finding it less satisfying than some others who stuck with it. So it’s hard to know if the experience and the percentage which stick at it and enjoy it has really changed or not.

From what I see, involved with district practices and district training events, older learners can learn just as successfully as younger learners if they want to, have the time for it and enjoy it (and if the opportunities to learn and practice, including talking about how to learn, what to look for or listen for whilst ringing, etc are provided).

Ouch! That sounds very harsh and I’m surprised it could be so different in NW England to other areas. I ring in London and I know we are lucky that this is geographically easier, with good public transport making it easy to ring at multiple towers but still.
I do agree that an annual course but no chance to practice the methods regularly in between is of little help. Most Associations have some organised training to help and / or district practices which can also help. Maybe we need to do more to spread best practice on support for developing bands. The Ringing Course Value for Money thread shares one such example of regular support for tower bands who want to progress. But this definitely relies on experienced ringers being willing to invest time to help developing ringers and in most areas this seems to be normal and satisfying for many experienced ringers.

Sussex also chose MemberMojo and have a good set of FAQ’s on their website: https://www.scacr.org/documents/membership/MemberMojo_Q-A.pdf

I’m looking into it as a possibility for Middlesex.

I think you have three ways you can approach this, and all will mean talking to local people to see what can be arranged.
1 - check what district practices exist with a focus on method ringing at different stages to see which of these you can go along to (and request the practices you need from the district ringing master if they are not currently planned)
2 - find out which towers regularly ring the methods you are interested in at their weekly practice to see if you could join their practices in future
3 - set up focused practice sessions or quarter peal attempts for the specific methods you are interested in, with support from experienced ringers

All of these will be more or less possible depending on the ringers in your local area and how far you can travel but you are probably not the only one with a similar experience in your area if the influx of learners means there is limited time for method ringing.
Being on the geographical boundary of Essex, Herts and Middlesex probably doesn’t help as many practices will be designed to be central to the district so you might find organising something specific is the best answer and you need to find other ringers in your area at a similar stage. The tower captains where you ring, the district ringing masters and training officers are all likely to be able to help with this.

This is what Piddinghoe have planned. By coincidence I rang there today and saw the flyer. https://www.newhavenfestival.co.uk/events/ring-in-the-new

I know young ringers in the London area who keep a record of how many towers they have been to and would enjoy Open Day opportunities to ring at new towers.
So with less new ringers in the last forty years than the forty years (ish?) before there will be less of them but I’d say there is a still a proportion who are tower grabbers and more who are interested in a day out once in a while.

We have a similar-ish experience. Having contacted all tower contacts to ask when they plan to ring and whether they need support the ones who are most likely to need support are the least likely to have responded. I think there is a natural alignment in this and not a huge amount can be done to change it except gradually growing the available and active ringers in any geographical area and encouraging them to visit other towers locally and start to strengthen the bands which can only currently ring three for Sunday service or only ring once a month for Sunday service. We are looking at the complete Coronation weekend to aim to get every tower to ring, with support where needed and are focusing the learners on the long term, beyond the Coronation, for opportunities to ring at more and more towers.

I think you will find it difficult to ring more peals until you have a wider range of methods to ring for quarter peals. There will be chances to tenor for a peal but there are limited chance for peals of doubles and many more peal opportunities once you can ring varied minor methods or triples methods because these make for more interesting peal opportunities for every ringer in the band. So don’t be too fixed on peal ringing at this stage, look for opportunities to learn more methods as minor or triples and then find the quarter peal bands to cement those methods. You are on the border of Essex and Herts so have two potential district ringing masters to help you find the opportunities but start by looking at the regular practices or training sessions which will extend your methods. This will later lead to peal ringing opportunities and the experience from covering for peals will stand you in good stead for keeping concentration when you ring peals inside.

I think it has to be considered case by case and it is about the PR value for ringing vs. the time and effort to set it up.
I think we can also be clear about what is feasible.
With the Sky News example two Kent towers arranged special sessions to get young learners in, in London we simply invited them to an existing planned quarter peal attempt and accepted 15 minutes of diversion.
So if the request comes from an agency / media channel less likely to generate useful press and new recruits we can tell them when they could join a normal practice but not offer to arrange anything special but for the right media it is worth arranging something special.
Looking at it another way… if the Central Council / International organisation benefits maybe it should be willing to pay something to bands that take on the special press requests and go out of their way to generate national PR.
I can’t imagine the TV companies will pay in most cases as for them it is a minor community interest story and not a revenue generating headline story.

@Martyn Bristow you are definitely welcome, most bands are very happy when a ringer returns and doesn’t need to start at basic handling but can jump straight in to ringing with the band.
I agree with you that for people to ring quarter peals and peals the stepping stone opportunities are needed. The simple issue is that proportionately there are now more people needing the opportunity and less people available to support the opportunities (at surprise level at least) compared to 30 years ago and many of those who could support (and do support) are reaching an age where they don’t want to ring so often or where they want to focus on ringing in a way which pleases them more of the time.
So the leaner generations of ringers have to work through the learning curve of more advanced ringing with less support and greater risk that it might go wrong and this means bands advance at a slower pace.
Having a local band to support and a busy life can limit the chances to advance faster and Associations can try to offer focused practices for advanced ringing but it will still need people to commit, to travel, to support so it does become more stretched when the pool of ringers gets smaller.
There are no easy solutions and your dilemma is understood by many ringers.

Two main pieces of advice (and this is a common complaint / feedback):
Try practicing grip and release with something rope size, dressing gown cord or similar, to get your hands used to it, repeatedly whilst watching tv or waiting for the kettle to boil
Try to grip less and have faith that the rope will stay where it needs to be, explain the mechanic that the rope ‘wants’ to move up and down in a straight line with natural rhythm from the wheel so you can work with it and then don’t need to actively, fiercely grip the rope

If it doesn’t feel better within a couple of weeks of trying both then it is worth seeing a doctor in case it really is a ‘tennis elbow’ type issue but often it is just that it’s something new and the ringer is gripping as though their life depended on it.

I think a lot of people who enjoy the social aspect of ringing enjoy it precisely because it is in the periphery! For people who want some social contact regularly but don’t have a group of friends to meet in the pub once a week, where a social club sounds too much, perhaps intimidating then the gentle social contact which ringing give you is very satisfying.
I think the invitation to join in and be able to join a band is a good analogy, no need to be a full time concerto but enjoy a regular practice with others who are also building their skills and enjoying practicing together.

I think emphasising the chance to keep learning, to work as a team, the social side and the chance to meet new people on outings, when you visit a new city and to have a wider variety of people you see regularly because bellringing often introduces you to people you wouldn’t have met through studies or work. So it’s a hobby a bit like joining an orchestra or amateur dramatics or a rambling group. If you have a variety of people being interviewed this is likely to come out naturally but I think some people think bellringing will be very serious, religious and once you have learnt then you just do it (because they don’t know we have thousands of different methods to try!).

I think Peter has provided very valid feedback here. The document does a job to enable safe running of a tower but the leadership, human interaction and social side are missing in the style of the document. Unfortunately this means that people most likely to need it, because they’ve not been part of a well led band where they have learnt the skills to run the tower over time, get a rather daunting and formal impression of what is needed. In many cases the soft skills are harder to teach but they are invaluable to good leadership which builds a strong and happy band who enjoy their ringing practice.

I think you are right, you want them to understand a bit about Bellringing, to consider whether they might like to learn and to be ready to talk about what they saw, heard and learnt to interested friends and family. Maybe you can ask them to fill in some feedback afterwards, to say what was interesting for them, what was confusing for them, what most surprised them. This might help future similar open day tours and could help with recruitment / pr ideas for what the public need to know to understand that it is real people, etc.

The coronation will be an interesting opportunity to see how many peals might be rung in a year, given a very good reason to ring. Maybe this will encourage people to ring their first peal, or their first peal for years.
Potentially a decline in peal ringing fits with many things in life which are becoming shorter, faster experiences as everyone is busy and / or has shorter attention spans.
Perhaps we need a focus, alongside the ring for the king campaign to ring every bell, on encouraging people to ring a peal and sharing how this can be prepared for and most manageable - practice quarters beforehand, extents or lengths of different methods to keep it interesting, a chance to request a conductor for a band which may not have anyone experienced to conduct a peal for them?