Ringing Forums

Thanks for the details, interesting.

I think your charge is enough to help make people think about making a commitment, but isn't high enough to be a barrier. We don't charge and probably won't in the near term, but we have discussed it, so the info is useful :-)

As you say, I think getting people to feel part of the team is very important. The beginning of our normal practice is focused on learners, for exactly that reason. They came to the tower Xmas meal, and will be invited to the BBQ and tower outing this year.

We also didn't actively recruit the four learners we took on last year and in some cases we asked them to wait as we'd rather take on fewer at any time, give them a good experience and get them into the band more quickly. One dropped out so we have three left. Another band member is going on the ART teaching course so we'll have 2x the teaching capacity soon.

We've had three who we gently turned down. The first thought he'd be "helping us out by ringing a bell" and at the trial session was more interested in talking about bellringing than actually ringing one. The other two were a couple who had a clash between practice and an existing social activity and seemed to think we'd rearrange everything around them. So basically as per your point about motivation.

how much do they pay? How far do they get in the 10 weeks? If they need tuition beyond that, do they pay for that or is it free?

So many non-ringers expect a quick demonstration then 'off we go - I can ring the bells'. — Alison Hodge

True, but I think that doesn't survive beyond the first contact with a rope :wink:

highlight all the different aspects that may be associated with ringing — Alison Hodge

I think that's important, when I was first learning it was at a Surprise Major level tower and nobody ever took the time to explain what they were doing or why, it was very much "You don't need to bother yourself with that, it's for the big boys & girls". For some people that that started at the same time that established a barrier that they've never breached.

The willingness to stick at it is very important IMO. The ability to cope with patterns is also a good predictor for getting into methods. — Tristan Lockheart

Hmm, interesting observations. I found lots of parallels between ringing and percussion, (something else I learned as an adult) particular in the area of patterns.

The pub is a not an immediately obvious indicator, but I think it's a good one, for the reasons you give, I've certainly learned most about the technical side of ringing behind a pint rather than a rope - although it's probably not a practical option for the younger ringers. :smile: There are reasons why people can't go down the pub such as work and family commitments, but I think the wider point about wanting to know more is right - certainly one of the best bits of advice I've been given is to always keep my theoretical knowledge ahead of my practical ability,

All interesting questions, some related real world observations: early last last year we took on 11 year old and 13 year old lads, neither with ringing parents, neither with any church connections and with the usual crop of sports activities for that age. The 13 year old is musical, and had self-taught himself guitar and piano. Both live within walking distance of the tower.

The 13 year old's mum stayed for practices, She seemed a bit over-protective, she told me he had ADHD but he just seemed like a normal 13 year old lad to me. The 11 year old's parents left him with us (he lives across the road from the tower). Both took instruction well and "got the idea" without any major issues, quickly understanding the relationship between what they did and what the bell did, and were able to act on that without prompting - they would mostly tell me what the problem was when there was one. I think that's perhaps a better indicator than how long it takes to physically master bell control? Both rang for the Coronation (assisted) and even ended up on the back cover of RW.

After about 6 months the 13 year old dropped out, no real explanation of why why but I didn't push it. The 11 year old is still with us and is ringing unaided, with a very nice style considering he's not a big lad and is on 2 big boxes. It's very clear he's "ringing for him" whereas I always had a suspicion the one that dropped out was being pushed a bit. The 11 year old's mum said he'd heard the bells since he was a baby and had always been fascinated by them, and was dead keen when he realised there was an opportunity for him to learn to ring them.

I don't regret the time teaching the 13 year old, one of our band's mainstays rang for around a year when she was a teen and came back to it 40 years later, so I'm viewing it as a long term speculative investment. In the case of our adult returner, it was clear from the start that despite the big time gap the basics were still in there, she knew when it "felt wrong" would say so and just needed an explanation of what she needed to do to fix things.

The fastest to pick up ringing in elapsed time has been the 62 year old recent retiree who started mid-November and rang his first call changes last week. But then again he's musical (cello, viola), extremely motivated and focused and has been getting an hour every week of 1:1 tuition - so perhaps no big surprise he's progressed so quickly. We have another adult who you is also keen, but due to family & work commitments can't put in as much time - but when I offered to do 1:1 sessions that fit in with her other commitments she jumped at the offer, so I'm sure will do just fine, even if it takes a bit longer overall - as she says "It's not a race".

Quite what you draw from all that isn't at all clear to me. Maybe musical ability is a good predictor - but then again, the musical teen didn't stick at it. Perhaps the best predictors are if someone quickly gets "grabbed by ringing" and also has the ability to stick at things? Possibly the biggest contribution from having a musical background is the understanding that learning ringing, just like learning a traditional musical instrument is a long process that takes dedication and lots and lots of practice? I think it's easy to forget just how hard learning to ring is and how much time needs to be invested. The recent retiree recruit has commented repeatedly on how much harder it has been than he expected.

where are the bells in relation to the opening panels? Our tenor used to "shout" terribly at one stroke, as it struck directly facing a louvre. We have two sets of louvres, both pretty large, so we've completely blocked up the lower ones which are in line with the bells and that's made a huge difference.

Perhaps try closing just the panel that's nearest the tenor to see if that helps and if it does, consider modifying it so the opening section is above the bells if possible?

From what I've seen something that is sometimes done is to re-profile the clapper, which means reducing the diameter of the shaft on a lathe. But from the description of yours, it sounds like that may not be an option, as it's been welded. I think you probably need to take professional advice.

We regularly use Musical Bell Combinations because we rarely have 8 ringers, we have the PDF version laminated and on the tower wall. The combinations for 5 bells are particularly useful, because an adjacent 5 out of 8 can sound rather strange. It also means that we can have light bells for those who need them, whilst still ringing the back bells (tenor is 17cwt).

One reason back bells are often not rung is because of the mystique and bullshit that surrounds them, with only the Ringing Gods being permitted to ring The Mighty Tenor. If people don't get a chance to ring heavy bells and thereby learn the necessary technique then surprise, surprise, they will shy away from them and they won't get rung.

I completely agree with all of that, if there was a "like" button, I'd have clicked it :wink:

The age range at our tower is 11 to 80, I used to participate in a different sort of group activity where the age range was also that wide. One of the big benefits was it gave young people the chance to form relationships with adults on their own terms and as peers, away from the usual parent or teacher ones. Over time you could see the youngster's interpersonal skills and confidence grow, and the wrinklies loved it as well. It was common to see a group with an age span of many decades "hanging out" together, eating lunch and generally shooting the breeze. There aren't many activities that can do that, I think ringing is one of them and we should recognise and promote that.

I do hope this comparison isn't suggesting that 62 is old! — Nigel Goodship

I hope not, otherwise I am :lol:

But it seems to be commonly regarded as "too old" in the ringing world...

ours was the same, the crown staple flapped around and couldn't be sufficiently tightened. During the 2018 rehang the headstocks were removed to be refurbished, so we took the opportunity to have twiddle pins fitted, so we could deal with any odd-struckness.

The shaft of ours is engineering plastic rather than wood, not exactly sure what. It's less than a year old so no idea about longevity, but we kept the old one under the bell so we have it it needs be. And AFAIK removing a clapper from the tower needs faculty approval.

We've just had one fitted on our tenor, which nobody could get up right (thanks G&J). It does seem to have fixed the problem - the crown staple was also dimensioned wrongly on the old one, so the whole lot was replaced. I haven't done the first maintenance on it yet, but as I had to crawl under the bell to grease the clapper bearing, having to crawl under it to check some bolts instead is no big deal. The clapper bearing is now a maintenance-free ball bearing rather than a plain bearing, so maintaining the tenor doesn't mean fighting with a grease gun.

I think determining what the root problem is first is best - it's not just the clapper that's important, it's the whole assembly, bell versus clapper swing times etc. I'm sure any competent bellhanger will assess all that anyway.

All I said was that it takes longer, which it does. — Simon Linford

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, I don't think sweeping generalisations help. I also think that progress isn't linear - some people can pick up the bell control stage very quickly and then top out soon after, others take longer to at the start but then pick up the pace later on.

We have an 11 year old who controls the bell beautifully, he's just starting to ring rounds. He started last May and if he sticks at it I'm sure will be an excellent ringer. We have a 62 year old who started in November and has almost caught up with him. Who knows how far each of them will go, I certainly don't. And why does it matter anyway, they are both assets to ringing and both deserve the opportunities they need to reach their full potential.

Will they get to Cambridge? I don't know - some of them would certainly hope so. On the other hand, the young Brumdingers rang a course of cambridge minor last week with two 10 year olds in the band. — Simon Linford

As a Minor-only ringer, after being berated for not being "Up to ringing on 8", 3 weeks later I rang Cambridge Major at a branch practice, because I had the prerequisites (and mysteriously, the sudden motivation) to do so. So what? The plural of "anecdote" is not "proof", either way.

you make some good points.

any strategy for supporting ongoing development should apply to all recent learners, gaining experience, wanting to ring more complex methods or to strike better (or to ring at more towers, etc) as age is not a defining factor then.

Agreed it should be a level playing field. And whilst in some places I'm sure it is, the truth is that the expectations of older learners are always lower, and that is inevitably reflected in the opportunities that are made available to them.

a little like the women in ringing focus you may need to be firmer that you do want to progress to avoid being pigeonholed as a happy, community minded ringer who will cover very well for the rest of their ringing career. — Lucy Chandhial

It's now widely and rightly considered that the issues that women face need to be addressed, and indeed that's happening. I've seen no recognition that ageism is also an issue.

The general concept of being open minded about why people want to ring and how people want to develop (or not) could well be a Ringing 2030 theme as ringers can be put off by any external expectations, pushing them forward or holding them back, when it’s based on assumptions rather than individual wants and needs. — Lucy Chandhial

I completely agree, but I see no sign of it. I think the concentration on recruitment as the top priority is a mistake, there's no point recruiting people if the infrastructure needed for them to reach their full potential isn't there, which in most places it isn't. Relatively speaking, it's easy to recruit, retaining and maximising the potential of recruits is much harder.

We met an adult ringer from a tower about 30 mins away from us at a branch meeting yesterday. He's been ringing for longer than I have and for the last 5 years, he's been trying to master PB6. Not only that, but he believes that once he has, he'll have cracked method ringing.

Firstly, nobody should be left struggling for that long, it's a good illustration of just how poor method teaching is in some places.

Secondly, there's no way a youngster would still be around, they'd have given up ages ago whereas adults are much more likely to stick at it. That reinforces the orthodoxy that youngsters are always "better" than adults. Some are, some aren't, it's not as clear cut as is generally claimed.

link is in the post above. Plenty about young recruits, which is great. But I've not found anything that specifically addresses the needs of older ringers, i.e. the majority of current recruits - it's almost as if they don't exist.

From the outside, the 2030 programme seems to be an attempt to roll things back to the way they were when the current "ringing hierarchy" were learning themselves, as youngsters. Those days are gone and are unlikely to return. Not only are the numbers used to justify the programme dubious, they fly in the face of demographics - we are a rapidly ageing population. Youth recruitment is important, but it is not the sole solution to towers going quiet. The CCCBR needs to cater for the requirements of the majority of people who are taking up ringing, and provide the support they need to progress as far as they can in the (as we are constantly reminded) limited time they have.

, @Penelope Bellis's experience mirrors mine - it's not that there aren't people who are supportive and encouraging of adult learner's, but there's enough of the opposite to make the the process far less pleasant that it should be.

Ringing also has an ageism issue, indeed it's now official CCCBR policy that adult learners aren't who ringing wants, despite the fact that they make up the majority of people interested in taking it up.

Seems like there's general consensus that 1.5x - 2x the number of bells is ideal, I think we'll settle towards the lower end as people's attendance is good. There also seems to be agreement that a steady flow of learners is better than "boom or bust", to get people ringing quickly and integrated into the band. And asking people to wait if necessary - which we've done.

Potato, Potato.

Perhaps you should agree to split the difference? :rofl:

https://www.engineering.com/story/pins-roll-pins-cotter-pins-and-keys-selecting-the-right-pin-for-mechanical-assembly

teaching entire bands from scratch tends to be older learners, who tend to take more effort to get into method ringing — Simon Linford

I think there's probably as much variation with in age groups than there is between them - . Perhaps what's more important than age is attitude and approach? A lot of older learners may be taking up ringing because they perceive it as a nice gentle, traditional hobby to take up in retirement, and to socialise with like-minded people. Nothing wrong with that, and indeed that's what many towers provide. But if you want to be a method ringer, you have to be determined and focussed - perhaps even bordering on the obsessive, irrespective of age.

Maybe rather than bucketing people by age, we need to be more nuanced and provide enhanced support for those who have the potential and willingness to become method ringers? Although quite how you'd do that is a good question. Another issue is that as far as I know there's no ringing community wide way of "fast tracking" such people, it tends to be down to geographical luck and word of mouth. Potential method ringers (of all ages) are almost certainly falling through the cracks at the moment. Do we need an "ART++"?

Would you say it's almost impossible to teach a new band from scratch and expect them to be a method ringing band without considerable ongoing support? — Simon Linford

There are bands who are well-established but who have "topped out" at CCs & PH, do you think the same applies there as well? There are differences from your scenario as there's already someone in charge, and the band is stable. Perhaps they might be a better bet for "Sending the elevator back down", provided of course that there's a strong desire in the band to move things on in the first place.

That's more or less the situation of my home tower and we are working towards being a method band, except we are doing it without external help. Three of us can ring simple methods and the rest of the band are "up for it". Expectations of method ringing are being set from the start with any beginners. It's early days and wouldn't describe us as a "method band" yet, but we are making progress. I'm interested in any thoughts about on what sorts of pitfalls we might meet, and things that might help us :smile: