Ringing Forums

This is where the bandwidth thing comes in. Before starting you need to know the method well enough that recall isn't taking up the majority of your thinking capacity. You also need to get ahead of the game so you are thinking about what comes up in the next few blows rather than thinking about what I am doing now. Once you have this capacity then there is space to think about other useful things like what order the bells are going to come at you, what is the treble doing, can I get my handling just right, how does the (whole) change sound, what rhythm are the back bells setting and do I fit into it, etc. — Jonathan Frye

My ringing teacher would frequently look at me after I crashed out and say "You've run out of brain again, haven't you". She was dead right. The more time I've spent ringing the slower everything appears to have got - it hasn't of course, I've just got better. The people in our tower starting to ring methods talk about this frequently, "situational awareness" is mentioned a lot, shorthand for what you describe.

All of that is a lot to think about and its impossible to do at first. But bandwidth is a trainable skill, you can effectively increase your "processing speed" which gives you more capacity to think about more at once. — Jonathan Frye

Yes, it takes suggestions on what things might work for someone (everyone is different) and practice. Lots of it. One of our ringers who is making good progress sometimes cocks up because she's now able to get "ahead of the line" and loses focus on what's she needs to finish doing first.

The easiest way to do what? Not the easiest way to develop core change ringing skills like appreciating and being able to control speed and position. It distracts from them. — John Harrison

I never said it was, I said it was common practice, I'm sure that's not because they want to distract anyone from learning "properly". But virtually all the conductors I've encountered put people right by telling who they are after, not what place they are in. And yes, if they don't know what place that puts them in then the "correction" will only last for a couple of blows at best.

The focus at practice nights and the instructions we give are very much on looking at a bell - follow that bell, look at that bell. — Charlotte Boyce

Yes we do, it's understandable as it's the easiest way but it does further reinforce the "by bell number" approach of CCs. Last week I stood behind one of our ringers who is just starting PH6. She was insistent I told her the bell numbers in advance, I was insistent I wouldn't :naughty: As she rang I pointed at each bell whilst counting places. Afterwards she said she knew in advance when a speed change was coming up and "I can see how that would work on 8". Contrast that with another ringer who's been ringing for much longer but point blank refuses to ring anything without several minutes of muttering bell numbers beforehand, even though we've told him the problems with that until we are blue in the face. The first ringer was "ringing ahead" of her bell, the second is always ringing behind someone else's, usually badly.

We are starting a series of articles in Ringing Round Devon on how an experienced ringer rings - what they hear, see, how they strike and how they ring by rhythm, how they concentrate, how they learn learn a method. They are the things perhaps people have traditionally been expected to pick up or read about, but perhaps we need to talk about them more, and pass on experience rather than expect osmosis to work. — Charlotte Boyce

That sounds very interesting and much needed. The "bandwidth" thing is key and I think lack of understanding the challenges can be one reason why good ringers get frustrated when trying to teach learners, it's difficult for them to comprehend the challenges. Perhaps those teachers should be made to ring with earplugs and horse blinkers whilst someone shouts random directions from a satnav to them, waving their hands around frantically at the same time? :rofl:

Could you post a link here when the article comes out? It sounds like it would be helpful to some people in my tower.

the infernal built in algorithms can produce some bizarre results. — John Harrison

And here was me thinking you'd been replaced by an AI :wink:

Are there examples of the above in today’s digitally connected world? — Andrew G Smith

There are many such online systems, it's difficult to say anything meaningful without a lot more information about the current systems the society is using and exactly what they'd intend to use a voting system for.

Are there any security issues, data protection issues etc? — Andrew G Smith

Yes, of course there are. See above.

Why do we have so many who get to that stage without the basic skills? Many of them don’t have the insight or determination to unlearn the wrong way of doing it and go back to basics, which is why do many are stuck. We shouldn’t be leading them down that path in the first place. — John Harrison

I couldn't claim any great insight, when I asked experienced ringers how they were ringing that clever stuff they all gave the same answer "By places", I think that's mostly understood by learners, even if they don't do it.

I suspect your question is largely rhetorical :wink: but I'll bite anyway.

I think there are many reasons why people end up in a cul-de-sac, some of them happen for the best of intentions. Not unreasonably, both learners and teachers want to get people ringing with a band ASAP, which usually means CCs, which in turn means bell numbers. Learners will by default assume that can be extended to method ringing. Another challenge with CCs is moving the bell around is only done at handstroke, so PH requires much better handling skills and that often isn't factored in. And everything happens much faster, and you need the rudiments of ropesight - the list goes on. I don't think the default first method helps much either - PB is alluring because it's "Just PH with dodges" but it really isn't as the bell order is different so you either need some degree of ropesight, or you use the only tool you have - bell numbers. And the standard "Two courses of PB5 for the learner please" is hopeless as well - you aren't going to learn to dodge properly if you only do 4 of them a week, with everyone else ringing around you while you smear your way through the individual dodges. I think another thing that's often missed is the "situational awareness" that experienced ringers have, it can be taken for granted that people know if they are at front/back, passing the treble, before/after bells and so on. However such discussions can quickly descend into "conductor-speak" which just leave the poor recipient feeling such things are way beyond them, which of course isn't true, at least in simple terms.

Thinking back to learning percussion as an adult, the approach was to hyper-focus on individual skills and accept that would temporarily degrade the others, then put the whole thing together. In a ringing context that might be ringing something simple like PH even if they are further on than that and analysing every blow - Too slow off the back? Slowing down in 2nds rather than pushing into the lead? If you use a sim you don't need to be a human Hawkear to do that, it will literally show you. Learning a challenging new method? Fine, put "Highlight ringer to follow" on and accept that the striking may be a bit rubbish until they get the feel of the method, then turn it off and work on the ropesight and striking. That does require individual tuition & practice, but so what? Ringing's default approach is like expecting people to learn a musical instrument by throwing them straight into a concert, no surprise we lose so many as a result.

Having said all that, it is undoubtedly true that some people either can't or won't progress past a certain point and it's fruitless to keep pushing them. It's very easy for trainers to get into the mindset of "I'll get X to ring Y even if it kills me", the result is 15 minutes of weekly handholding and crashing about whilst the people who have done their homework and are itching to get on are relegated to the supporting cast. X is often blissfully unaware of the issue and is quite happy to soak up as much time as they are given. And eventually the supporting cast, who have potential, will either just stop ringing, or move elsewhere.

Our potential new recruit was very happy with our approach but said up front that he couldn't commit until next year because of his business interests. We agreed to be in touch again at that time. I would much rather have no learner than someone who isn't going to commit. — Phillip George

We have asked people to wait if we didn't feel we had the capacity at the time to help them make good progress, e.g. because we had existing learners at the early stages. It's seemed to work well for us. And we've gently turned people away who we didn't think had a reasonable chance of success, for a number of different reasons.

I think one of the reasons is that ‘up to Bob Doubles’ on the mental front isn’t accompanied by the range of competences needed to ‘ring a method’. They can just about struggle through PB5 without those skills, but add an extra bell to the mix, or an extra feature to navigate, and they can’t cope. — John Harrison

You are spot on there, I nearly gave up once I'd got to the blag-my-way-through-PB5-by-bell-number stage and realised what was needed to progress any further. I had to go back to basics and greatly improve my existing skills, as well as learning the new ones I required. In retrospect I think that might have been avoided, at least in part. The people climbing up the ladder in our tower still spend quite a bit of time improving their core skills such as striking and listening skills on the sim. That really pays off when they are trying something challenging as the core skills they need are much more "on autopilot".

I agree. There's a big barrier between ringing plain bob doubles/minor inside and Cambridge minor inside, and you need to be able to practice it weekly with a strong band, not a few minutes once a month. There's a missing generation of ringers resulting in a squeezed middle, so fewer and fewer opportunities to do this. I see this everywhere in my travels around the country. — Roger Booth

As a citizen of the squeezed middle, I can confirm you are exactly right. The biggest boost to my ringing was COVID. I was the keyholder / caretaker / clock winder for the church and as there were no practices to go to, rather than sitting around for 70 minutes and ringing for 20 once a week at a practice, I'd walk to the church several times a week in my "outdoors time" and ring continuously for 30 - 60 minutes on the simulator. I went in to Lockdown ringing PB Minor, I came out ringing Cambridge Minor, and Major not too long afterwards.

Perversely, I spent a lot more time on the end of a rope during COVID than I did before, that helped my "skills package" immensely which means that learning new red zone methods has become relatively easy. There's a big "hump" getting into the red zone, many of the new skills are internal and therefore much harder to teach than things such as handling, where the trainer can directly observe problems. As someone who is trying to help people up the ladder below me, we spend much more time in 2-way communication than we did at the earlier stages.

Many of the newer ringers are in their 40's and 50's and are early retired, working from home ... keen and prepared to pay ... demand for the new residential ringing courses in the Northwest and Southwest, which are three times over-subscribed — Roger Booth

You are precisely describing my situation.

However I don't think the ringing courses are going to fix the problem on their own, comments I've heard from people who tutor at them is they are seeing the same people come back each year, having made no progress between courses as they don't have regular opportunities to ring at that level - a point you've already made. And the courses aren't advanced enough to fix the red zone problem either - last time I registered I dropped out because it was suggested that I should go as a support ringer, and when I looked at the NW course this year, I was already beyond what was being offered.

they can be impatient with the newer ringers, expecting them to do things before they have mastered the basics, which does not work. — Roger Booth

I think that's very true. From talking to advanced ringers who learned when they were young, one thing that seems common was they were borderline obsessive-compulsive about it, ringing multiple times a week and getting a lot of rope time. It just takes time to get any good.

Training up and getting the enthusiastic newer ringers into these roles is of paramount importance and could make a huge difference. It was really pleasing this week when two of my Ring for the King learners invited me to attend a Plain Bob Minor training session which they were organising! — Roger Booth

I bet :smile: And you are right, capitalising on enthusiasm of new ringers is key. When I started ringing, my home tower had just 4 regular ringers, zero involvement with the association and the band couldn't get past back rounds in PH5 without a fire up. We are now ringing on all 8 regularly, we are all members of the association, we host and go to branch practices and we have regular tower outings as a band. That's been achieved with a mix of new and "returning" ringers and rather than being a tower that needed support from the outside, we now have learners from other towers coming to ring with us. None of that has happened overnight and I doubt we'll be ringing Cambridge any time soon, but the enthusiasm is there across the band and as a result the trajectory is in the right direction.

There are plenty of opportunities through joint branch practices and qps to ring S6 and S8 but way less opportunities to move on from bob doubles. — Charlotte Boyce

Your association sounds like it's well-organised and active, many aren't, including most of the ones I'm surrounded by, so the situation is far worse elsewhere. The ringing community is pretty good at getting people up to PB level, but it generally falls apart after that. There are a number of reasons, I think a significant one is that getting people up to PB can still be done by individual towers whereas red zone training increasingly can't be done by most individual towers. That is where associations / CC should be stepping in, but mostly they aren't. I'm excluding the traditional monthly practices, I'm talking about targeted training in the same way as we teach the earlier stages.

Whilst I'm sure people are going to respond and say monthly isn't enough. But that's the resources we have to work with. Only 1 tower within our Branch can field a band of bob triples from its members, and there's only a handful that can ring bob doubles on a tower practice night. — Charlotte Boyce

We wouldn't expect people to learn to ring with just one lesson a month, I'm mystified as to why it's assumed that much more complicated skills can be gained with only 1/4 of the opportunities to practice them. I understand the challenges, but as someone who started ringing relatively recently and not as a youngster, it's absolutely no surprise that people stall around the PB level.

If the officers and CC Reps in Guilds and Associations don't get behind Ringing 2030, is it going to succeed, or just hit the buffers as similar initiatives to address our demographic time bomb have done so often in the past? — Roger Booth

Unfortunately I think there's already enough evidence to say it's doomed, at least in its current form. I think if there's a role for the CC it's coordinating advanced tutoring in areas where associations are struggling, and providing training that's specifically targeted at moving people into the red zone. I though the "Cast of 1000" idea had real merit, I'm not sure why it never got any momentum. And the training doesn't have to involve getting 6 or 8 Surprise ringers in a tower, there could be much more use of 1:1 training using simulators, for example. For the first time in at least 50 years my home tower is seriously ringing a QP, in preparation one of the potential ringers had a session ringing Grandsire Doubles on the sim this week. I expected it to take a couple of months before she could ring inside to a touch, she did it in the first, admittedly intense, session.

That is clearly wrong. A rounded ringer needs all the skills. — John Harrison

I'm with you on that.

But if we keep teaching new ringers the same way we will always be in that position. — John Harrison

We are emphasising the importance of listening & rhythm from the very start and we work hard with people to develop those skills. But we don't "own" our ringers, many who either learned long ago, or at other towers. Previously the whole band were "holder uppers" whereas now the most promising of our ringers, who have worked hard on ropesight & rhythm, have developed both the ability and the confidence to figure out if someone is in the wrong place and to ring around them. That's been transformative, both for them individually and the band overall.

That’s normally couched in terms of not wanting to learn fancy methods but in practice i think it imbues everything, including even ringing simple methods well. And once the collective mindset is established it affects new ringers who either adopt it themselves or leave. — John Harrison

Yes, I've rung in such towers. People who were asked help, not to take over but just to quietly support the band, were pushed aside.

I think there's another potential reason, but it can be difficult to distinguish from the scenario you describe. It's a combination of lack of knowledge, fear of failure and of being made to look inadequate.

When I started ringing my home tower the remaining handful of ringers, who were in their 70s & 80s, had been ringing CCs for decades and had never been exposed to "quality" ringing. To the then-TCs credit, his attitude was if he could at least keep the bells ringing there was the opportunity for things improve. He was a major force behind our rehang and when the time came he stood aside gracefully for the new TC. He still comes to all our social events and has an occasional ring with us, along with the other ringer who helped keep the bells going for decades. We owe them both an immense debt of gratitude and I think it's a good illustration of how people can make a significant contribution to ringing, whatever level they are at.

People I teach become competent ringing rounds before they have to integrate ropesight and coping with the variability of other ringers. — John Harrison

As do we.

Which is one of the reasons Gordon Lucas said they were not a sensible step on the route to learning tithe skills to ring methods — John Harrison

I agree, but we have to ring with the band we have, not the one we aspire to have. When we started out on the journey the band couldn't get past back rounds in PH without firing out, for a whole raft of reasons which were all down to CC ringing. We've had to address those issues *and* keep service ringing going, which currently depends on CCs.

We shouldn’t (and I don’t). Blame the teachers not the pupils. — John Harrison

That was the "we" as in "ringing in general".

I know of one teacher who point blank refuses to teach other than primarily by rhythm, with ropesight second, and CCs are banned. It causes all sorts of problems as soon as they ring anywhere else. They stare at the floor, they can't cope with the inevitable wobbles and tempo changes and they are impossible for the conductor to put right, because "After X" is verboten. It's an approach based on theory than in principle may seem sound, but we have to deal with real ringers, not theoretical ones.

. I have never had a pupil who couldn’t progress from solo bell control to rounds with a simulator with no visuals. — John Harrison

Agreed, and ditto.

I risk assessed my tower. We are all over mid-60s and into our 70s. Under current cisrcumstances I've given our tower 5 years of ringing remaining!! Let's hope it much longer! — Phillip George

We've grown from 4 to 8 service ringers over the last couple of years (not counting COVID), plus a couple of regular practice visitors. That's all adults, the majority between 50 & 70. A couple are returning ringers who hadn't rung for decades, the rest are new ringers. We are seriously thinking about how the tower band could ring a QP, for the first time in at least 50 years. Will the current ringers ever be a Red Zone band? Perhaps not, but if we can keep the band moving forwards and provide a good "seed bed", perhaps the next generation will be.

We haven't done anything special - no huge recruitment drives etc. But we have agreed as a band that we want to learn and get better together, which we have. That's developed a virtuous circle where people have a sense of achievement, increased enjoyment, broadened horizons and a desire for more of the same.

How soon? Before they can ring steadily and hold to a rhythm? — John Harrison

As soon as they can ring steadily and with good control on their own, for a decent stretch.

That tends to confirm that they have been conditioned to rely on ‘seeing who to follow’ and then making a last minute action just after they do so, which undermines any sense of rhythm they might have acquired. And when they fail to look at the right rope, or it’s not there, they have no means’s of knowing where to place their next blows, even approximately. — John Harrison

Absolutely agree but as they start by ringing rounds, seeing / following is inevitable. But CCs are the next step and they are all about following bell numbers. I do know a couple of people who think that CCs should only ever be taught by place, but tradition means that's not realistic in the majority of towers. We have one learner who could cover almost immediately she started ringing with the band because she can hear where she is in the order, we've encouraged her to make the most of her "superpower". We also drill in to people from the very start that ringing by "Follow X" is almost impossible to avoid but it's a dead end, and that they need to focus on rhythm & place.

However in the end you can't force people, particularly adults. I can think of someone who says he can't hear his bell so his striking is poor as he has no feedback loop. He's hyper-bell number focussed, I stopped running sim sessions for him as he insisted on having the visuals on and on knowing the bell numbers beforehand - I repeatedly told him the issues with that to no avail, and I didn't feel I should be an enabler for bad habits.

On the other hand I do understand the difficulties as I was in the same position myself not that long ago and I remember how hard it was to switch to place & rhythm - but I 100% knew I had to, it was the point I nearly gave up. We have someone who is ringing PH after just a few months, but is doing it by bell number. She absolutely knows she needs not to be doing that, last practice she was asking me how to switch to by-place. Straight after that she rang hunt bell to Cloister Doubles for the first time, I stood behind and each time she came off the lead she'd hold up and ask me which bell she was over, which I refused to do. Once she realised I wasn't going to tell her she just "got on with it", and made a decent fist of it.

Learning to ring is just hard. That's one of the attractions for people who stick at it and progress.

For initial teaching I never do turn on visuals because my aim, as stated previously, is to help the learner develop confidence in using their rhythm and listening skills before they are exposed to the visual element, which tends to dominate and crowd them out. — John Harrison

I think that's a good idea but we get people ringing Rs & CCs with the band as soon as possible so they then tend to freak out if they can't see bells, even virtual ones. So I get them ringing PH steadily on the sim with the screen on, and then turn it off without warning them :naughty: I haven't found anyone yet who can't keep going, even if they wobble more.

I agree with the rest of what you say about the problems with "by bell number" teaching. As a wise old ringer said to me:

Ropesight is always easier if your rhythm is right, and gets harder the further out you get. No; it's not fair. If you ring at the right speed, you get to the right place at the right time, and, hey presto, the rope you *should be* following will be the rope you *are* following, and will be easy to spot, even though you don't need to, because you've got the bell in the right place anyway. If your rhythm gets a blow or two out, spotting the rope is harder, because it seems not to be where it should be (because you're not where you should be). The better you are at ringing, the easier it gets!

You're absolutely right John. You haven't missed it because I haven't written it yet! — Simon Linford

Thanks Simon, I looked at the online contents and there's a "Great Expectations" article also by you in the current issue and I didn't know if that was the followup or not :smile:

As for liking the answer or not, I'm just happy that you are talking about the issues, much of the ringing community seem to be sleepwalking towards the abyss. As I said, I agree with your assessment of the current situation and although there perhaps might be disagreement about steps forward, without acceptance of the issues there can't even be that. So thank you, and Lucy, for using your voices to make it more visible, I for one appreciate it,

it's an incorrect assertion anyway. Abel (and I believe all the other simulator packages) support a "moving ringers" display, where you can ring one bell whilst the simulator provides both the sound and a moving display of the other ringers. It will even highlight the ringer you are supposed to be over. That's how I got my ropesight, particularly on 8 as I don't have access to an 8 bell method band and ropesight has always been a struggle.

Having said that, now I'm further on I practice at least half the time without the visuals. It does mean you really have to concentrate on listening and rhythm as it's all you have, and it's easier to concentrate on navigating the line without having to deal with the visual aspect, as you say. And yes, not having the added pressure of being the crasher-abouter in a real band is also a help :grin:

But I think visuals do have their place, without them my striking accuracy suffers a bit and things like where you pass the treble or who you consistently dodge with at the front/back aren't visible. So it's horses for courses, how you use can best the sim really depends on exactly what which skill you are concentrating on.

I think you are also right about simulators being underused in many towers, ours is used multiple times each week and is the standard learning tool for our ringers who are progressing onto methods. As a band that's attempting to move from 4 call change ringers into 8+ method ringers, it's a vital tool for those starting methods - we don't have a band to put around them and although they all are happy to support earlier stage people at practices, they inevitably spend most of their time at practices in a support role rather than on their progress. The sim gives them a chance to work on their skills, with a "band" that doesn't make mistakes. There are other benefits as well, the simulator has given them confidence to "ring around" others who aren't in the right place which means we can keep going when previously we'd crash out.

Finally, the system we have in our tower is none of the above but is commercially available from John Thorpe. It uses solid state sensors so no dirt/light issues, it has a USB interface, it can be used with multiple laptops/bells simultaneously and it's USB powered so we don't need mains for it in the bell chamber.

I know I shouldn't worry about silly individuals like this but makes me feel really undervalued as a ringer and I was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems? — Oliver Lee

Unfortunately, yes. And it's even worse if you are an adult starter. Whilst the majority of ringers are fantastic, there are a small number who aren't, and it's they who stick out - and in your memory! I generally try to just ignore them but if it gets bad enough I just stop ringing with them, I know one tower who lost three of us in rapid succession because of one individual's attitude. As yours sounds like a one-off encounter, I'd just ignore it and move on with your ringing - good luck in your quest to ring on higher numbers :smile:

Thanks for the details, and that's a very impressive diary page!

Our branch runs elementary, intermediate and advanced practices each month — John Harrison

What sort of level are each of those?

as well as a weekday afternoon and Saturday practice for all levels — John Harrison

So how many opportunities are you providing each month? It sounds like at least five?

Branches around me seem to think one monthly practice is enough, and quite often they are more like outings than teaching practices. I'm sure that's fine once you reach a certain level, but for people trying to progress, once a month is nothing like often enough.