Ringing Forums

as I said at the start of this… I would be willing to talk to two or three others and then talk to MemberMojo as a group but…. as stated yesterday not if this becomes a huge topic of whether one national membership is the answer for all associations as I think that’s a much bigger topic and will take far longer to reach any kind of definition to then discuss with MemberMojo. So it depends what you are aiming for.

I’ve never considered myself Victorian but I have no intention of getting involved in a push to a single national (global) organisation! I offered assistance with a suggested idea, I am not extending that to a much bigger idea so I’ll leave others to decide if they want to try it.

That’s a suggestion for a different model from the original question posed (I think) and would therefore require a different kind of project. I was aiming to answer the question posed as a way to potentially save money and scale efficient methods of collecting subs that could be offered quickly.

I think that there are enough ringing associations using member mojo now to pull together a conversation with them about improvements or adjustments which would suit the ringing set up. For example I’d like them to make it easy for us to mark the tower contact and then let the tower contact see who has renewed in their home tower. Potentially a group discount for ringing associations could be negotiated, making use of the overall volume but keeping individual association subscription rates, databases and ‘rules’ on how MemberMojo is used. I’d be happy to work with one or two others to start a conversation and see whether MemberMojo see any benefits for them in this.

It could also be that ringing all eight would then be limited to called changes or plain hunt, to keep to quality striking for neighbours, and that perhaps this is part of the decision to ring six where the method repertoire might be wider for most people at the practice. So it is definitely worth asking for a little bit more information, whilst making it clear that you would like the opportunity to ring all eight.
Some towers near me have one practice a month which aims to ring all bells and they ask extra visitors or irregular visitors to make extra effort to come that week of the month to make it possible to ring all bells at least once a month.

Three ringers I regularly ring with have all had significant operations in the last four years and simply not mentioned bellringing as an activity, knowing that a medic with little knowledge will suggest they stop and trusting that they can feel for themself what feels manageable as they recover. I think experienced ringers can make that judgement and sometimes it’s the stairs that are the problem rather than the ringing. A little bit like with a learner who visits the tower for the first time a simple safety net of someone close by willing to take over the rope if needed let’s someone try ringing a bell they are used to for the first time after an operation and see how it feels.
And… not everyone is an older ringer when this happens (but I appreciate it is more and more likely as we get older that we will have operations or long term conditions to manage and need to adjust to new physical capacity.
Every time I give blood I’m told not to do any physical activity that day and then I cycle to bellringing and ring up the tenor without any issues, but I would know if I felt a little faint or sick and then be more careful what I tried.
Then there are ringers who find ringing a really useful exercise for stretching back muscles, keeping flexible and gentle activity which keeps us fit. The medics also don’t know enough to suggest bellringing when they suggest yoga classes or a walk in the park as good for mental and physical health!

and I fully agree with this! One of things I liked about learning to ring as a young teenager was being treated as an equal with adults rather than the usual clear teacher, student relationship and I still think that having regular contact with a wide range of age groups, through bellringing is enjoyable and good for everyone.

Most Associations have a librarian or similar role so if you check the Association website you should be able to find contact details. Many Associations have scanned their old reports so they can make them searchable and available for enquiries.

You are not alone and it is frustrating!
As a district secretary I also have the task of asking tower contacts to confirm their details and tell me if details need to change each year. This can be surprisingly difficult with a small proportion of tower contacts so I can see why we end up with out dated information or lack of response from some towers across the country.
If you wanted some data on it you could ask the Dove team as they have been emailing lots of tower contacts about bell information so may have (or could start to collate) the proportion where they don’t get a reply or are told ‘I haven’t been ringing for years who need to contact X’.
Often this is the same contact for learning to ring at a tower so it doesn’t help our recruitment if we don’t have a responsive contact available for people.

I think this is a common issue, strategy looks for the gaps which need filling or the areas of weakness to address but that can leave the ‘successful’ demographic feeling left out or unwanted. Ringing 2030 talks a lot about how to attract young ringers, to learn and to stay with ringing for the long term because there are not many young ringers learning and staying at the moment. The success with adult learners, and especially adults coming to ringing with more time available in the second half of their life, means there is no strategy needed for recruitment here.
However, any strategy for supporting ongoing development should apply to all recent learners, gaining experience, wanting to ring more complex methods or to strike better (or to ring at more towers, etc) as age is not a defining factor then.
I do see situations where younger learners are given more opportunities, more advice and find there are more expectations for them to keep developing at pace, to understand new jargon quickly and be ready to keep moving on. But I do also see older ringers who do their homework and show serious interest being given similar opportunities, advice and a push towards their development. So, as with most things, it probably depends who you ring with and how you demonstrate and explain that you want to keep progressing your ringing but a little like the women in ringing focus you may need to be firmer that you do want to progress to avoid being pigeonholed as a happy, community minded ringer who will cover very well for the rest of their ringing career.
The general concept of being open minded about why people want to ring and how people want to develop (or not) could well be a Ringing 2030 theme as ringers can be put off by any external expectations, pushing them forward or holding them back, when it’s based on assumptions rather than individual wants and needs.

I know three towers near me where there had been no ringing and then a band was set up (after new bells / major work on the bells) and it is definitely hard work, usually relying on one or two key people who are willing to teach and develop the new band AND rope in extra support from other towers near by. All three are still active 8-10 years later but all could ideally do with a few more ringers to ensure weekly service ringing and practices and the chance to keep developing ringing ability. They are lucky in that it’s London so if your home tower can’t help you progress it’s reasonably easy to join a second practice each week or join district practices for progression.

One tower near me is currently attempting to re-build a band, currently they have three ringers who call it their home tower, two of whom regularly ring elsewhere to get more opportunities. A local experienced ringer took on the challenge and arranged teaching sessions for new learners and calls for help to support practices once or twice a month. The congregation were invited to come and see what bellringing is about and this resulted in three learners of which one really stuck at it. This will be repeated again, nearly a year later, to see if there are more to recruit from within the congregation. Again it has relied heavily on one organiser and the helpers they are able to pull together from other towers nearby and it is still a good way from being a sustainable and independent band.

I’ve sent you an email with the Middlesex Association information.

@Peter Sotheran - From my occasional visits to other towers, I get the impression that many of them don't feel any affinity with the branch. Is it for these towers to find the branch contacts and seek them out, or is it for the branch to adopt a 'evangelical' approach and try to draw them in?

I agree that this is true for some towers within most Associations and Guilds and I think the challenge is that the Officers who would need to do the evangelical outreach are volunteers with busy lives and a high level of existing commitment which makes it hard to also add visiting the less involved towers.
So it does happen to some extent, in many Associations and Guilds, but it’s also useful to make it easy for ringers in these towers to find information and contacts if they want to look for opportunities.
So keeping a website up to date, providing a place to make contacts through Facebook and sending an email to all members two or four times a year can help ringers in less connected towers to find connection to the Association or Guild.
All of which requires input, time and commitment from core people within the Association.

@Roger Booth made the point that often new ringers have lots of enthusiasm and are therefore willing to travel for opportunities to ring and wiling to support the Association or Guild to do more.
I think sometimes we need to be more open about our needs within a Committee of Officers and ask for volunteers who can update the website, or visit less visited towers with news of the activities available and not worry that people who might volunteer to do this are not the most experienced ringers.
I can imagine that simple introduction guidelines and ‘how to’ for these kind of activities could be made available on the CCCBR website to make it easier for someone to feel confident about tackling the five year out of date Association website or setting up a newsletter email which hasn’t been sent since pre-Covid times. Whilst every Association and Guild is different greater opportunities to share ways of doing things ought to be helpful if we are needing / wanting to grow the level of activity through new volunteers.

We have just moved to MemberMojo for Middlesex and one of the things I found, which surprised me slightly, is that I can’t easily email all members unless it’s about renewal of membership, unless we also use MailChimp or equivalent.
So, I think, and I’m not yet an expert, that we couldn’t easily use this as a newsletter route (which is okay for Middlesex as we have a Google group for easy distribution of information to interested ringers (members or not).

I do agree that some ringers aren’t told about the website and email list opportunities in their area and many are delighted when they realise there is support for their progression once they know that district or branch activity exists. It still feels valuable to get active members out and about to less interactive towers to meet the ringers and encourage them to check the website or join the mailing list, etc (even when it is not encouraged from within their tower).

I wonder, maybe a rude question (!), whether CCCBR Reps should have more responsibility for sharing information to Association and Guild mailing lists, with a more personal reason to engage rather than the emails which say ‘I’ve been told to forward this to our members’ from a Secretary role with no active knowledge or involvement in the content shared.

I found this a useful summary of the objections to the changes in Truro: https://savetheparish.blogspot.com/2023/12/bishop-hugh-and-his-diocesan-supporters.html

I think it has an interesting focus on the non church going community who want the church to still be there in a traditional way and I guess many bellringers fall into this category - not church goers for service but would like the church building to be protected and to continue to be used for services as well as community activities on a regular basis.

The Church of England is in a strange situation because many people who don’t join services regularly and wouldn’t be part of PCC meetings do care about the continuity of the church as a place to visit occasionally but if the ever smaller congregation can’t finance the church it’s hard to keep it open (although I hear the argument that far too much cost now sits in the diocese and that’s why churches struggle financially).
I can see how a strong Diocese leadership can encourage local parish councils to want to join without them necessarily understanding where it could lead or feeling like they have a real choice and certainly that’s part of the feedback in the Truro blogpost.

I find it hard because I wouldn’t particularly want to see growth in church congregations and a move towards being more religious as a nation but I also see that if churches close and have less frequent services it takes away the core reason for ringing and the provision of the bell tower and it will be very expensive for bellringing to create new venues or to finance church availability if it is not part of natural church activities.
Choirs exist outside of church and religion, etc very easily. I don’t think there is a comparable activity as a guide to how to move forward in this scenario.

The Ringing World 10th November has an article from Richard Smith. This is the most relevant part. But it is taking about 1530’s rather than anything significantly earlier than that.

“Late in the sixteenth century, William Byrd (c1540–1623) composed a short air for the virginal, a keyboard instrument like a harpsichord. It was named The Bells and descending scales feature prominently, clearly intended to evoke the sound of church bells. This tells us that bells being rung in rounds was a familiar part of the soundscape of the day. Twenty Ways upon the Bells, a piece for two lutes by Thomas Robinson that was published in 1603 also prominently features fivebell descending scales, reinforcing the idea that rounds was being rung by the end of the sixteenth century.

Andrew’s article quotes the Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic of Henry VIII which says that during the Lincolnshire Rising of 1536, the people ‘rung bells backwards’. This is an interesting new piece of evidence. The earliest description I had found of bells being rung backwards was in the State Papers Domestic of Elizabeth I (Addenda, 1566–79, p.105) from 1569. During the Rising of the North, another Catholic uprising in the north of the country, the Earl of Northumberland took Topcliffe Bridge ‘and rang the bells backward’. As Andrew says, these accounts tell us that there must have been a usual order for bells to be rung – presumably rounds – and the population could tell when they were being rung backwards. This new source pushes the date of rounds back from Elizabethan times to the eve of the Dissolution.”

The Andrew mentioned is Andrew White, who wrote a previous Ringing World article about ringing around the time of the Dissolution. So there clearly is some research out there but nothing looking as far back as you, from what I can see.

There’s a recent Ringing World article about ringing backwards in early emergencies about three / four weeks ago. I’ll try and find the page number.

There are already chiming sets in many churches so that small, inexpensive bells can play perfect Bristol Major for every occasion. There is a church in Kensal Green which does this, playing for the Coronation, for the Bishop’s visit, etc. These sets of bells are less expensive to install and require less maintenance, because they are hung dead and chimed with hammers. So this is a definitely an option which the church is aware of.
I did also hear that some churches played a recording of their bells at the start of virtual services during Covid when the bells were not being rung.

Bellringing is more like archery than cycling or running, more like hot air ballooning than heritage railways because you need specific space and equipment but only those involved really benefit (most of the time).
In my experience few people from outside invest into bellringing (some of the heritage guilds and liveries have done in the City of London) so we probably need to be prepared to consolidate as churches close and costs to keep towers running need to match available and interested ringers.

I can’t think of any obvious example where an equivalent art / sport / heritage activity has taken off as mainstream and grown in a way which makes it financially secure and well attended in cities, towns and villages across the country.
I think the earlier we stop the decline the more chance we have of keeping as many towers and bands functioning as possible and this will depend on the number of ringers who will act to help with recruitment, training and supportive ringing, ringers who would really miss it if it was gone rather than simply shrugging shoulders and doing something else one evening a week.
The issue is that this might be only 10-25% of current ringers (judging by those willing to take on a role in the local guild or association or get involved in additional ringing purely to support others, etc) but this is an unknown number as people haven’t really been asked to try to stop a crisis and I guess Ringing 2030 needs to, gently and positively, help ringers understand the risk of not getting involved.

I see this part: “ Many ringers are ringing for themselves and not for the future” as key. Ringing will decline where too many ringers just want to ring for themselves and not to develop others and pass on the enjoyment of their hobby to others. Perhaps this is a missing focus in Ringing 2030 as the marketing to find new ringers will not help if existing ringers are not interested to teach and support those new ringers.

I think the hard thing is that the one main connection, making the difference between a well loved and well used tower with a happy band and the tower left to gradually disintegrate is one or two willing volunteers with decent communication skills and a desire to run a good tower. Finding these people, supporting them and developing the next volunteers isn’t easy but is the key. I think the importance of the leadership is recognised as a challenge for Ringing 2030 but the grass roots volunteer set up doesn’t make it easy to ignite change everywhere and local experiences will continue to vary hugely.