Ringing Forums

But it is something I came acros often - learner struggles with something and no attempt is made to find out WHAT they are finding difficukt or WHY they are going wrong. — Sue Marsden

I am fortunate to be retired. Therefore I have time to give extra practises to my ringers. The issue in the case cited seems to be that the learner hasn't been taught how to dodge, or, more importantly, the difference between an up and a down dodge. This is one of the elements which I teach during our extra practices, and is more easily done at 'tied bell' practices because continuous practice can be done, and often in a group environment with other similarly experienced learners. It is the teacher's responsibility to make sure that the learner understands the various elements of ringing. Same as a school teacher needs to make sure they get the message across! Feedback is always important. Are we taking too much for granted? Are our expectations for some of our learners too high? Are our expectations for some our teachers too high? (Teachers of ringing are not necessarilly "teachers")

I am fortunate to be retired. Therefore I have time to give extra practises to my ringers. — Phillip George

I'm not so fortunate but I still run weekly tied bell + simulator practices. The difference it has made is significant. I think if you are serious about bringing people on, extra practices are vital. Nobody is going to learn to dodge properly with the standard 2 attempts at 2 leads of PBD a week.

it's worth looking at The Road to Ringiing, reviewed in last week's RW. They are based on Linda's own teaching practice, developed over a number of years.

I have the full set and Linda was waving the RW at me about an hour ago, although I didn't have a chance to read the review as we were all about to leave for the next tower :smile:

Ok, I have only skimmed the above but

Yours making an assumption, that we stop “teaching people”, by which I’m defining as developing there skills and offering learnings.

I learned to ring in 2001 (ish), I would like to ring I have wisdom imparted to me weekly by Manchester Cathedrals ringing master and I’ve just attended the NW Course (again).

I think part of the teaching model is a separation between learning and doing, which in my professional opinion as a software developer and coach is flawed.
We shouldn’t stop learning, and therefore being taught, we should simply transition to a different style of learning which is continuous and peer driven.

Perhaps the expectation being given to people is you learn to ring, then you ring, rather than a lifelong pursuit of development of a skill.
Personally I try to talk to my learners about continuous improvement.

I agree about the need for a continuum from initial learning through coached development to self driven / peer supported development. That lifelong perspective was the guiding philosophy whe we wrote The New Ringer's Book, and it's something I try to impart to everyone I come into contact with.
But I think that's a bit tangential to the thrust of Linda's book, which is that the early stages of learning can lay the ground for developing change ringing, and that if they aren't, as is often dine, later progression to competent change ringing is made difficult if not impossible.

I think you are both right. Of course some people get to a level and don't want to progress any further, but I don't think anyone starts with a goal of being distinctly mediocre.

Obviously there's a point in people's progress where they need to do the equivalent of moving from college to university and take primary responsibility for their progress. The challenge is supporting that - in many cases the ringing equivalent is a bit like pointing them at the university library and telling them to come back in three years for an exam. And if that's coupled with John's point about lack of groundwork, it's no wonder so many people get stuck between PH and "proper" methods.

I spent a half an hour yesterday quizzing a very experienced ringer about his "mental model", rather than the mechanics. It was invaluable - some things I'd already figured out myself and it was good to hear I wasn't too far off the mark, other things I hadn't thought of but clicked as soon as he said them. To go back to the university analogy, it was like attending a tutorial. I know the importance of the pub to ringing is often joked about, it can fill the same role but it's very hit and miss.

One thing that stood out in particular is he said that introspection was key to sustained progress. That comes across very strongly from the people who post here - it seems to me that they spend at least as much time thinking about ringing as they spend doing it. I think imbuing learners with that mindset from the start is important.

I don't think anyone starts with a goal of being distinctly mediocre — John de Overa

I'm sure they don't. They might start with an ambition only to do modest things but I doubt that thought that they would never fully master them would not enter their minds - a bit like the difference between aiming to climb a small hill so you can stand on the top and admire the view having expended modest effort but finding yourself part way up a scree slope where it's a continual effort.

the people who post here - it seems to me that they spend at least as much time thinking about ringing as they spend doing it — John de Overa

We are a very biased sample. It's hardly surprising that a discussion list attracts people who think about things, and the subset who make comments have clearly thought about them enough to form a view they feel worth passing on.
Also bear in mind the relatively high entry bar to these discussions - first you have to make the effort to subscribe to the forum and then you have to be interested enough to check it periodically. Compare that with the email lists where once you have subscribed everything gets delivered to you, whether or not you have already commented on the topic, and the even lower bar of the Facebook groups where stuff gets fed to you without the need to express any interest.

I like the scree analogy, it sounds familiar :grin:

I realise this is a biased sample but that's really the point - those people have a lot to offer, not just in their direct interactions with pupils but also in helping others do the same.