Ringing Forums

In the area where I ring it is assumed that all learners are working towards method ringing, even if some might only choose simple method ringing (and some experienced ringers are still practicing how to treble to doubles). Not every tower practice can manage plain hunting and beyond but every tower band is aiming to get there.
I see younger learners developing faster through the skills and therefore moving on more quickly (often) compared to an older learner who joins the same number and variety of practices but I don’t see older learners being ignored or held back or assumed to be not interested in extending their skills.
I do see some older experienced ringers who have actively chosen not to extend their skills beyond a certain point and others who feel ‘stuck’ at a certain stage, especially if they don’t have time to visit other practices alongside their home tower.
I think we have a good culture (where I am) of working towards a first quarter covering, a quarter trebling, a quarter inside, etc and a path from plain hunt to trebling to ringing inside which lets people move into method ringing so that they can take it as far as they like.
Ringing ‘press’ has celebrated both young learners and older learners achieving impressive goals so I don’t think anyone should feel held back by age.
It is definitely true that supporting ringers (of any age) to extend their skills is time intensive for the ringers around them and I know you have talked before about how more could be done with simulator sessions and online trainings to help bridge the gap when the chance to ring with a band is hard to arrange.
I would be interested to better understand at what point people hit the limit of local support in different areas because where I am it becomes difficult when you want a supportive band for surprise major but I understand that in some areas of the country it’s already difficult to get the chance to ring bob minor with a stable band around you.

You've mentioned the situation where you are before, and it sounds pretty good. I've just come back from a tower practice in another association where it was all method ringing, up to Kent, so clearly there are areas where things are working well. However that's not the situation in my home association, so I think it's very patchy nationally. One thing that stands out to me is that in the grouping that's successful, mobility of ringers is the norm from the very start. To me that has all sorts of benefits, is that something that happens in your area?

I don't recollect seeing any publicity about older ringers, the only things I've seen have ben all youth oriented,if they were in RW I'm not a subscriber, like many others in my position.

From my experience, in-tower support generally tops out just before the start of the Red Zone, although of course there are exceptions. Progressing to Surprise Major really isn't a realistic option here.

I think another unfilled gap is teaching the theoretical side of ringing. That's a hard sell, but if I look at the difference between people who continue to make progress and those who are stalled, it often seems to come down to what I can best describe as "a shared mental model" and "situational awareness". They have vocabulary and understanding in common with more advanced ringers which means it's far easier for them to react to feedback, before, during and after ringing. In contrast the reaction of people who get stuck is often a blank stare. I think that may be a result of too much concentration on "You are learning Method X" rather than "You are learning how to learn and ring methods". The game changer for me was the latter and it's something I try to pass on to the people following behind me. I think that without it, you can polish physical skills as much as you like, but people will top out around the PB level.

I’m aware of a ringer who has pretty much stopped ringing because they feel pressured (in the nicest possible way) into taking on objectives that they feel are beyond them.

I’m also aware of a ringer who stopped because they felt they were not getting the same chances as others to progress.

My own particular bugbear is that as soon as a ‘step’ is achieved, it’s on to the next! I’d actually like to try and enjoy my latest accomplishment, but no time for that, the road leads ever on and on.

Second bugbear, unconsciously denigrated ringers by using ‘just’ or ‘only’ before an activity. E.G. they can only ring rounds, we’re just going to ring call changes.

For me the objective of bell ringing is happy ringers at whatever level they fell able or willing to achieve.

The assumption that only a tiny majority of older ringers want to ring methods — John de Overa

I’m not sure that age is the defining factor driving ambition. In my experience adult learners in general think more about all aspects of their ringing, including progress, than youngsters do. I suspect aspirations are influenced as much or more by the environment into which they are recruited.

too much concentration on "You are learning Method X" rather than "You are learning how to learn and ring methods" — John de Overa

Yes, I’m sure that is very true. And not just for moving on to advanced methods. Right at the start lots of explanation is missed out.
People argue heatedly over whether you shout tell learners the bells to follow or the places to ring in, but how many are never told that they have to change the speed at which they ring when hunting?
And when moving on to Plain Bob how many do not have it explained that the work happens when the Treble leads, and that dodges are backward steps in hunting?
The New Ringer’s Book has 25 pages on how to ring changes and actual methods appear quite near the end of them.

I suspect aspirations are influenced as much or more by the environment into which they are recruited. — John Harrison

I think you are right, it certainly matches my personal experience of joining what was at the time a pretty moribund tower, I had to learn elsewhere. That's not true any more, so things can change - although it's not been a quick process.

And not just for moving on to advanced methods. Right at the start lots of explanation is missed out. People argue heatedly over whether you shout tell learners the bells to follow or the places to ring in, but how many are never told that they have to change the speed at which they ring when hunting? — John Harrison

I learned by bell number and had a rude awakening when I realised what a dead end that was. The experience was so painful I always stress to our learners that places are the only way if they want to progress beyond PH. When I started everyone in the tower rang by bell number. The obligate treble ringer only had 2 speeds - slow and slower, so once PH got to back rounds it fired up, as everyone frantically tried to hold up. If you said things like "front", "back", "in,", "out", "quicker", "slower" they were met with blank incomprehension - "I just ring over X, then Y, then Z...". There was zero comprehension of "ring at the right speed".

And when moving on to Plain Bob how many do not have it explained that the work happens when the Treble leads, and that dodges are backward steps in hunting? — John Harrison

Indeed, I was explaining exactly that last week. We ring a lot of Minimus, out of necessity, but I think it's easier for people to spot the relationships between bells when there are only three others to think about. I do wonder about the default use of PB as a first method, it feels like it's picked mostly because it seems "close" to PH rather than because it's good for teaching a specific new skill. From my experience, it certainly didn't teach me how to dodge properly, for example.

Second bugbear, unconsciously denigrated ringers by using ‘just’ or ‘only’ before an activity. E.G. they can only ring rounds, we’re just going to ring call changes.
One experienced ringer near us has banned the use of ‘just’ for exactly that reason, when you ringing called changes it’s not ‘just’ called changes for at least one of the ringers!

“One thing that stands out to me is that in the grouping that's successful, mobility of ringers is the norm from the very start. To me that has all sorts of benefits, is that something that happens in your area?”
In some towers.
I find this interesting because some people like to teach in their tower and keep their band with them to ring their way or progress the way they lead them and for many of the people involved this works very well and these are some of the most successful towers locally.
Others are much happier to encourage learners to go to other towers too, often because they or one of their band regularly go to that same other tower so you get networks with some cross over of ringers which can help people to progress faster. Some of these towers are bands which struggle for numbers or struggle for experience so visit other practices regularly for the opportunity to stretch their own skills but if they then encourage learners to come along too there is a crossover benefit and progress can improve.
Generally people don’t start joining other practices until they can ring in rounds and often it is when they reach plain hunt that they want to get more than one opportunity a week to practice their skills.

handling training is mostly "in tower" round here as well, but in the grouping to the north of here that I'm thinking of, once people can ring rounds they usually start getting out and about.

I'm not a great fan of "ring their way" teaching mostly because of the "my ringers" attitude it implies. Every teacher has a slightly different approach, some things work well for one person but not another so I think the more you are exposed to the more likely you are to find things that click. The other problem is that whilst there are good TCs, others shouldn't be let anywhere near a learner, and those are the ones who often have the "My tower, my ringers" mindset.

Personally I've always rung at multiple towers, initially because when I was learning to handle I was taken aside by a visiting ringer and told "Ask X at tower Y to teach you, before you kill yourself". But I'm the only person in my tower that rings regularly elsewhere, and I think that's reflected in my progress - one practice a week isn't enough if you want to push on.

Another bonus is I often pick up things I can take back to my home tower and pass on to others, we've benefitted a lot from outside influence in what was historically a completely isolated tower without needing others to come in and "prop us up".

Every teacher has a slightly different approach, some things work well for one person but not another — John de Overa

Yes and no. People do teach in a lot of different ways. Some of those ways are good and a lot are bad. And it's true that one approach might click with someone for whom anoither didn't, so being exposed to different approaches can be helpful. That's fine as long as the approach that clicks is a good one. The problem is that exposure to bad approaches can also click,