Ringing Forums

All interesting questions, some related real world observations: early last last year we took on 11 year old and 13 year old lads, neither with ringing parents, neither with any church connections and with the usual crop of sports activities for that age. The 13 year old is musical, and had self-taught himself guitar and piano. Both live within walking distance of the tower.

The 13 year old's mum stayed for practices, She seemed a bit over-protective, she told me he had ADHD but he just seemed like a normal 13 year old lad to me. The 11 year old's parents left him with us (he lives across the road from the tower). Both took instruction well and "got the idea" without any major issues, quickly understanding the relationship between what they did and what the bell did, and were able to act on that without prompting - they would mostly tell me what the problem was when there was one. I think that's perhaps a better indicator than how long it takes to physically master bell control? Both rang for the Coronation (assisted) and even ended up on the back cover of RW.

After about 6 months the 13 year old dropped out, no real explanation of why why but I didn't push it. The 11 year old is still with us and is ringing unaided, with a very nice style considering he's not a big lad and is on 2 big boxes. It's very clear he's "ringing for him" whereas I always had a suspicion the one that dropped out was being pushed a bit. The 11 year old's mum said he'd heard the bells since he was a baby and had always been fascinated by them, and was dead keen when he realised there was an opportunity for him to learn to ring them.

I don't regret the time teaching the 13 year old, one of our band's mainstays rang for around a year when she was a teen and came back to it 40 years later, so I'm viewing it as a long term speculative investment. In the case of our adult returner, it was clear from the start that despite the big time gap the basics were still in there, she knew when it "felt wrong" would say so and just needed an explanation of what she needed to do to fix things.

The fastest to pick up ringing in elapsed time has been the 62 year old recent retiree who started mid-November and rang his first call changes last week. But then again he's musical (cello, viola), extremely motivated and focused and has been getting an hour every week of 1:1 tuition - so perhaps no big surprise he's progressed so quickly. We have another adult who you is also keen, but due to family & work commitments can't put in as much time - but when I offered to do 1:1 sessions that fit in with her other commitments she jumped at the offer, so I'm sure will do just fine, even if it takes a bit longer overall - as she says "It's not a race".

Quite what you draw from all that isn't at all clear to me. Maybe musical ability is a good predictor - but then again, the musical teen didn't stick at it. Perhaps the best predictors are if someone quickly gets "grabbed by ringing" and also has the ability to stick at things? Possibly the biggest contribution from having a musical background is the understanding that learning ringing, just like learning a traditional musical instrument is a long process that takes dedication and lots and lots of practice? I think it's easy to forget just how hard learning to ring is and how much time needs to be invested. The recent retiree recruit has commented repeatedly on how much harder it has been than he expected.

I don't regret the time teaching the 13 year old, one of our band's mainstays rang for around a year when she was a teen and came back to it 40 years later, so I'm viewing it as a long term speculative investment. In the case of our adult returner, it was clear from the start that despite the big time gap the basics were still in there, she knew when it "felt wrong" would say so and just needed an explanation of what she needed to do to fix things. — John de Overa

Yes, it's a good perspective to have. At university towers, we usually only keep our learners for 6 months to 3/4 years, before they go out into the world - not long to benefit from the fruits of our labour. We do our best to connect them to towers when they graduate, and I'm sure the towers which receive them are pleased to receive existing ringers.

In the same way, we're always grateful for those who learnt as a child, some of whom stopped part way through their teenaged years for whatever reason. I suspect their original towers regretted their loss or maybe thought the effort spent teaching them was wasted. But it helps keep us going. All part of the ecosystem of ringing.

The same can apply to tower outreach. I first went up a tower when I was around 9 at the local May Day fair. That experience stuck with me, and when I saw the change ringing stand at my university's freshers fair a decade later, I was instantly drawn in! It's all a long-term investment.

Quite what you draw from all that isn't at all clear to me. Maybe musical ability is a good predictor - but then again, the musical teen didn't stick at it. Perhaps the best predictors are if someone quickly gets "grabbed by ringing" and also has the ability to stick at things? Possibly the biggest contribution from having a musical background is the understanding that learning ringing, just like learning a traditional musical instrument is a long process that takes dedication and lots and lots of practice? I think it's easy to forget just how hard learning to ring is and how much time needs to be invested. The recent retiree recruit has commented repeatedly on how much harder it has been than he expected. — John de Overa

The willingness to stick at it is very important IMO. The ability to cope with patterns is also a good predictor for getting into methods.

But for us, our biggest indicator was whether they came to the pub afterwards. It showed team spirit, a willingness to give up time, wanting to find out more about the theory and mechanics, and an interest in the broader world of ringing.

The willingness to stick at it is very important IMO. The ability to cope with patterns is also a good predictor for getting into methods. — Tristan Lockheart

Hmm, interesting observations. I found lots of parallels between ringing and percussion, (something else I learned as an adult) particular in the area of patterns.

The pub is a not an immediately obvious indicator, but I think it's a good one, for the reasons you give, I've certainly learned most about the technical side of ringing behind a pint rather than a rope - although it's probably not a practical option for the younger ringers. :smile: There are reasons why people can't go down the pub such as work and family commitments, but I think the wider point about wanting to know more is right - certainly one of the best bits of advice I've been given is to always keep my theoretical knowledge ahead of my practical ability,

In Birmingham we are discussing a strategy of targeting first year undergraduates as our main recruitment effort, particularly focused on the universities where a high proportion of the students are either from Birmingham already, e.g. BCU. Birmingham benefits from a decent proportion of students staying on the city or region for employment, so this drop off of ringing students leaving is lower. Integrating students with the City's other ringing activities is also very important in this because it provides so many more opportunities and makes ringing more part of their life.

Having been involved in teaching young Brumdingers for quite a while, and knowing how difficult it is organising and running young ringers groups, dealing with non ringing parents, etc, there are many advantages to teaching 18 year olds instead - they can go to the pub, they can get themselves places, they are at a time of like when they are ready for fresh experiences, etc. So it will be interested to see how it goes.

That said, this 11 year old might spark a new wave of Brumdingers!

I feel that understanding the required long term commitment is the main item to stress. So many non-ringers expect a quick demonstration then 'off we go - I can ring the bells'.

The other items may all contribute but there are many capable ringers who may or may not demonstrate each of the attributes listed.

What we do need to do when introducing new ringers, is to highlight all the different aspects that may be associated with ringing and then attract and retain a new starter. We have raised all these before on this forum but they seem to be overlooked - history, mech engineering, software, travel, archaeology, team work, travel, handbells, geography, photography .......

Getting to 'know' the individuals and getting them involved in more than just the bell handling will help draw out their interests and should help get them hooked.

So many non-ringers expect a quick demonstration then 'off we go - I can ring the bells'. — Alison Hodge

True, but I think that doesn't survive beyond the first contact with a rope :wink:

highlight all the different aspects that may be associated with ringing — Alison Hodge

I think that's important, when I was first learning it was at a Surprise Major level tower and nobody ever took the time to explain what they were doing or why, it was very much "You don't need to bother yourself with that, it's for the big boys & girls". For some people that that started at the same time that established a barrier that they've never breached.

highlight all the different aspects that may be associated with ringing — Alison Hodge

Very much so. That's why we devoted a considerable chunk of The New Ringer's Book to it. In the margin of our striking competition on Saturday I had an interesting conversation with a keen but fairly basic ringer who had noticed the some of their wheels had an extra garter hole, and wondered why. I explained the relationship between the position of the garter hole and the ground pulley and his eyes lit up.

Perhaps you have the luxury of more ringers than bells. Here, where I have started training a band in a tower that was dormant for almost a decade, I make the point that we will teach them completely free of charge but in return, once they have mastered the basics and can control a bell safely and competently, we hope/expect them to join the Sunday service band.

Turns out it was his mum who decided he might like to try bellringing. However he loved his first experience and wants to learn.

not sure which of Simon's points you were answering, but it raises one thought. The deal of 'free tuition in return for a commitment to stay' has a natural logic but I doubt it holds much water. Would anyone who lost interest feel bound by it? I doubt it. Would anyone who got hooked give up without it? Again, I doubt it.
So how important a factor (to the new recruit, not immersed in ringing custom) is the fact that tuition is free? I suspect very little if any.
There are cases of people willingly paying something for tuition, and there are cases of people being surprised that tuition is free. But are there any cases of someone being put off by being asked to pay?
My suspicion is that the main barrier is that ringers don't like the idea of charging because 'it is never done', and that is self perpetuating.
If charging were the norm I suspect few of us would feel obliged to offer free training. Most of us would simply charge the going rate because it is easier to go with the flow. That's actually what we do now, except for some obscure historical reason the going rate is mostly zero.
To draw a parallel, not an exact one but I think useful. I teach ringers and I don't charge because I have been doing it so long it is easier to keep doing it that way than to change. I also give talks on many topics to various groups, and I usually do ask for something because I know the groups I talk to expect to pay their speakers (though the going rate varies quite a lot between groups). Again, I go on doing it because it is easier than either charging a 'professional fee' (which would rule out a lot of groups) or offering to talk for nothing.

'free tuition in return for a commitment to stay' has a natural logic but I doubt it holds much water.

If a new recruit stays with us long enough to master the basic skills and ring r&cc, then they are probably close to being 'hooked'. At my age, I have no time or interest in teaching people who want to learn to ring simply because it might be an interesting hobby. My motivation is to maintain a viable band at my home tower.

Almost without exception, those who have mastered the basics are rather pleased when we invite them to start attending on Sunday mornings. They feel that they have 'arrived' and gained recognition of their endeavours.

We have been charging since Jan 2023. Ten weekly 1 hour lessons and a freeby at the beginning to confirm that they want to sign up. We sign them up to LTR and give them the LTR book for learners. We schedule the practices at the beginning but can be flexible to make sure they get their ten. We welcome them as part of the team from day one. They come to normal practices as well - that's all part of learning. They pay up front and the money goes into the bell fund. I can't give them my experience but I teach them everything I can. Although they have paid I don't want them to give up, it's not in my interest. The four ringers we have had since then haven't minded paying. Unfortunately two gave up due to ill health! We are trying to plan for succession, I probably won't be ringing in ten years time! We are trying to portray ringing as a modern, exciting thing to do. We use the simulator a lot (paid for by the ringers out of their fund). We hope that a financial committment helps people understand that they are investing in their future as ringers which will benefit the tower and wider ringing community.

how much do they pay? How far do they get in the 10 weeks? If they need tuition beyond that, do they pay for that or is it free?

Very good questions. We charge a very modest £60, based at the time (2023) on the cost of a local one hour yoga class at £7.50. We expect to get them through Level 1 by ten weeks so that they are 'safe' and gaining a good general understanding of ringing and feeling a sence of belonging to the team. I mentioned that they also attend practices. We don't do any tuition as such then but they do ring backstrokes or handstrokes in rounds with everyone else, so their learning is continuous.
At the end of ten weeks we review progress. If the commitment is there we might carry on 1:1 foc for a while (no contract). But this also depends on my availability. The reason we charge is not for my personal financial gain but it makes the time I give more worthwhile. Nor should we forget that they are getting good tuition (that of course is subjective, even with ART!!!) Here is testimony from one of our young ringers on his youtube channel "I started learning to Bell Ring January 2023 being taught by a great teacher and learning so much." So something is working well!
What might be worth mentioning is that since Jan 23 the four ringer who have come to us have contacted us, we haven't recruited them, so they were self motivated and this probably makes a difference.

Thanks for the details, interesting.

I think your charge is enough to help make people think about making a commitment, but isn't high enough to be a barrier. We don't charge and probably won't in the near term, but we have discussed it, so the info is useful :-)

As you say, I think getting people to feel part of the team is very important. The beginning of our normal practice is focused on learners, for exactly that reason. They came to the tower Xmas meal, and will be invited to the BBQ and tower outing this year.

We also didn't actively recruit the four learners we took on last year and in some cases we asked them to wait as we'd rather take on fewer at any time, give them a good experience and get them into the band more quickly. One dropped out so we have three left. Another band member is going on the ART teaching course so we'll have 2x the teaching capacity soon.

We've had three who we gently turned down. The first thought he'd be "helping us out by ringing a bell" and at the trial session was more interested in talking about bellringing than actually ringing one. The other two were a couple who had a clash between practice and an existing social activity and seemed to think we'd rearrange everything around them. So basically as per your point about motivation.