Ringing Forums

'The church would have few if any ringers or musicians for its goings on if only churchy people were allowed.
— DRJA Dewar

The last two recruits to our band came from the congregation, so I think this is somewhat of an oversimplification. — Alan C

Perhaps, but not excessively so. If, say post-1975, the church banned non-Christians from ringing, I suspect little or no method ringing would exist now, and call changes would also be limited. It's not just a question of the church membership status of the individual ringer; it is a question of those who taught and mentored, rang with them, cast, hung, funded and maintained their bells too.

Not the most inclusive turn of phrase I've heard used. I thought church bell ringing was for those with a faith as well as those without. — Alan C

It's a turn of phrase which did not originate from me. It is a sentiment expressed to me by clergy and lay-preachers in the CofE. My post above did not advocate the exclusion of Christians; it was in response to Mary asking whether we were too embarrassed to mention the link to the church and was in the context of recruitment. Do you think that most of the general population would consider a church/religious connection to be positive and something that attracts them to ringing?

ringing as a service to the church? Has that connection gone or are we too embarrassed to mention it? — Mary Jones

Christianity, or more specifically, the church, is an increasingly unattractive, or even toxic, brand. Only a portion of the UK population are suitable to be change ringers. A smaller part of that portion are Christians. We cannot survive on Christians alone. The number of Christians continue to decline in the UK, and the traditional CofE who have most of the bells is declining faster. Evangelical churches which are growing in popularity range from indifferent to outright hostile towards bellringing.

At Freshers Fairs when recruiting for my university ringing society, when asked what Change Ringing is about, we answer “We ring church bells” followed by a quick “it’s a secular activity and you don’t have to be a Christian” when you see their interest plummet upon the mention of the word “church”. In simple terms, ringing as a service doesn’t sell, even to members of the Christian Union. Christians and many non-Christians will understand the religious aspect of ringing because we do it in churches and we ring for services. However, mentions of religion put others off. Therefore, omitting overt mentions of religion and service would appear to be the best overall strategy.

Lots of statistics and charts showing the decline in peal ringing since about 1980. The only charts which are showing an increase are the average number of peals per peal ringer, the average age of peal ringers, and the percentage of peal ringers who only ring one. — Simon Linford

Well, from the sound of those statistics, it seems to me like peal ringing is becoming more concentrated amongst a shrinking pool of people. Of course, this means that there are fewer opportunities to progress into peal ringing, worsening the cycle. However, a fair few university societies have avid peal ringers in their number, sometimes enough for an entirely resident band. So all is not lost (yet).

So the big question is, does it matter? — Simon Linford

What do you get out of ringing peals? What does the exercise get out of peal ringing? (these are questions for the whole class :D)

If, say, it is the notion of an extended performance or acquiring the skills needed to ring continuously for a longer period of time, is that already covered by QPs?

I have been involved in membership matters from old students' associations to railway preservation societies, and life memberships do cause problems.

When societies are wound up, life members get upset that they are losing their 'investment'. Let's say the Anytown & District Guild wants to merge with the Countyshire Association, as the two societies no longer have critical mass individually. However, many of the life members are life members of both associations, but no longer derive the benefit of being life members of both societies. Likewise, if a Direct Membership Organisation was introduced, there would be no way to equitably transfer life memberships should any particular association decide to call it a day.

Often, the loss of annual fees causes a severe monetary loss for the society. For many years, a (non-ringing) society I am a member of offered life membership for £300, accounted for as £15 per year over 20 years as opposed to £20 per year plus fee increases. Those who purchased it for £300 are 'paying' their last £15 this year; meanwhile, new members now pay £43 annually (for various good reasons). In another society I'm a member of, they coughed up something ridiculous in 1972 like 50p, and haven't paid since. Life membership probably makes sense if they are past retirement age and it's a decent lump sum, but otherwise it causes nothing but grief financially.

Since people are more likely to move from of a society area much more often now than was the case decades ago when most society rules were written, is length of membership the point that should be acknowledged or the contribution that someone has made to the society? — Alison Hodge

I imagine this will increasingly become an issue, especially for those who have been ringing since they were young. I can't justify five guild memberships, so I flit between guilds as needed. I don't think I will ever qualify under continuous or even discontinuous membership rules!

How on earth do you keep track of them?? — Steph Pendlebury

We have a similar issue at the Leeds University Society. All persons who have held any sort of membership automatically becomes an honorary life member as per our constitution. We don't hold any constitutions from before the 1990s but the provision probably goes some way back. We have no list of such members, so our return for the Central Council is based on our alumni mailing list, which is only probably 1% of the possible total members. Simply put, we can't keep track of them and if someone turns up and wishes to exercise the privileges of an honorary life member, the young adult who has been in the society for less than a year, potentially, will have no choice but to afford them said privileges.

We should … be more selective and weed out those unlikely to make the grade at an early stage, and use the time saved to bring on the ones we keep.

I think Philip Gorrod's rather harsh approach is probably not the most appropriate solution for most towers. It is necessary to prioritise - perhaps think about it in terms of opportunity cost.

Continuing to teach one rather struggling learner versus:

• focusing on the more able learners to give them the support they need
• getting others to plain hunt
• mentoring an aspiring ringing teacher
• helping on a ringing course
• teaching others to be steeple-keepers
• helping with the activities of the local guild, the Central Council, ART etc.
• organising a ringing tour for the band
• helping the band prepare for a striking competition
• your own personal development or wellbeing (you need to look after yourself too!)

... etc. etc.

Ditching learners is not needed. However, a 'strategic reallocation of resources' in management-speak may prove necessary in the event of limited resources. So one learner, and they're struggling? You can probably keep going with them. But if you're doing everything in your tower/area already, then it is probably time to consider what would be best for your band, yourself, and ringing as a whole.

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For £100, I would be expecting weekly 1:1 sessions and a strong band to ring with! And that’s speaking as someone with a pretty decent financial position. Even beyond issues of affordability, I don’t think bellringing has £100-worth of enjoyment in the first year, at least for an up-front payment. The first year is spent not being able to ring with the rest of the band for some or all methods, and feeling a bit in the way. Depending on the band, there may or may not be a bit of a social life (pub, ringing tours, dinners etc.) but it is not a given. For young people, you may well not have anyone of your own age in the band, so it is not quite so socially-active from their perspective. I’m not saying it should be free, but we need to be realistic about what we have to offer.

Happy New Year, all! Need to be a bit more sober for my QP later today…

It seems that bells may go the same way. Is there a similar body to that which I have described above which can act, at least, as a clearing point? Keeping a watching brief for wherever redundant rings may find a new home, and preferably an active notification policy for what and where is available, is needed. — DRJA Dewar

Sounds like the Keltek Trust to me. They seem to be doing quite a good job so far, but I suppose they can only deal with a certain volume given the level of demand. @Roger Booth's prediction of people trading their bells for nicer rings sounds interesting - it sounds like now is the time to work through your Dove's guide if you're a tower grabber who goes after "interesting" bells...

Making the church more suitable for community use means that it will be heated and kept dry. A good alternative to selling it off. Getting back to the original issue of services in church halls, perhaps if the churches themselves were more flexible the churches could be retained as a combined hall and church, and flog off the new buildings? — J Martin Rushton

Our church had work in the last decade to allow its use for other events and make it easier to use for church purposes. Carpeting, pews, kitchen, toilets etc. Someone on the PCC told us that these days, it would have cost just shy of £1m. This was primarily cosmetic, with the structure being well-maintained and without serious defects. Costs for churches in needs of structural repairs will be higher still! Good luck getting that sort of money if you don't have a strong congregation. The new buildings tend to be more structurally-sound, easier to maintain and more suited to modern uses. When it comes to a toss-up between the church and the hall, economically it'll be the hall most times, even if the church holds more valuable. It is often taught in Christianity that the people and the word are more important than the building.

Insofar as it relates to ringing, we have to be prepared for a considerable reduction in the number of towers. What are the implications of considerably fewer towers for recruitment and retention? Where are the opportunities for relocated rings of bells, or will many be lost?

Impressive! We clearly don't need the forums - the AI can do it all for us :P

It depends where else the money could be used - augmentation can be right in some circumstances; but in others, improvements to the ringing room, a simulator, courses, teaching aides etc. could better. Also whether you will get good use out of them - there have been a few cases where a great deal of time and money has been spent on augmentation but 5 to 10 years later, there is no local band and the bells are silent.

This is a matter of great concern for me. As Simon says, we are chasing a shrinking market.

Amongst the university societies, I would be surprised if they overall have double figures of ethnic minority ringers. Given that universities and university societies are the most fertile ground for recruiting ringers from ethnic minorities, we clearly have a way to go.

When we were recruiting at our freshers' fair back in September, it was noticeable how many girls came forward to talk to us when we had girls on the stall, rather than just two stocky lads. Representation is important, and when people see people like them in promotional materials and on the ground, they are more likely to step forward. Once we break the initial barrier, then the increase in diversity is self-perpetuating.

The question is, how? Maybe any diversity we already have needs to be promoted, along with targeted outreach to community groups.

Alan, I don't think anyone has suggested any sort of imposition. Jason has suggested engaging with local groups to help them make changes locally, not some sort of national diktat.

We have to move forward as technology progresses Peter, whilst at the same time maintaining older technology for as long as it is reasonably practicable. I would say email is in danger, as is facebook, and we need to start moving forward into WhatsApp and Instagram... — Jason Carter

I wouldn't write off email just yet. It is the key to the internet, so everyone has at least one. And it has an appealing universality - you can get in touch with anyone no matter their email domain. WhatsApp and Instagram do not work in quite the same way. Facebook on the other hand is on its last legs. Ask most young ringers whether they have it or not, and most will say they got it just for ringing matters.

So which of these should I use to be sure that I can keep abreast of national & regional ringing topics? I'm afraid that from what I read in the press, both Whatsapp and rather more so, Instagram are badly tainted with inappropriate and pornographic material and I have no wish to become involved with either. Now that my 'Nigerian cousins' have stopped pestering me with details of the wealth allegedly awaiting me, I find emails quicker, safer and simpler to use. — Peter Sotheran

WhatsApp is effectively souped-up text messaging, enabling you to send media and be members of groups. I have used WhatsApp for more than a decade now, and I have yet to receive a single spam message and certainly no porn! If you aren't up for WhatsApp, that's fine but it will mean you are increasingly out of the loop. People are less willing to use emails for quick-fire conversations (as opposed to correspondence) than in the old days, and WhatsApp groups are very useful for bands/groups of officers. You use Facebook which has far more suspect content than Instagram and WhatsApp! If you can access Facebook, you can access Instagram without difficulty.

For those concerned about the future of ringing like me; it’s great to be at the NUA as I type, surrounded by young people who are passionate about ringing. Not all dark clouds on the horizon, thankfully.

we need leadership training for tower captains, District/Branch/Guild/Association ringing masters, chairs, PR and comms officers, webmasters etc. This would equip them with tools and help them be effective in their roles. There also need to be ways of sharing good practice and for this to find it's way down to the people who need it. — Roger Booth

There are plans in the works for leadership courses; it's just a question of finding the right people to run and deliver them and getting people to actually go on them. Anyone with appropriate experience and skills, now is your time...

The filters do transfer over. I think I have set it so that it now shows towers in alphabetical order by default.