Ringing Forums

Quite what you draw from all that isn't at all clear to me. Maybe musical ability is a good predictor - but then again, the musical teen didn't stick at it. Perhaps the best predictors are if someone quickly gets "grabbed by ringing" and also has the ability to stick at things? Possibly the biggest contribution from having a musical background is the understanding that learning ringing, just like learning a traditional musical instrument is a long process that takes dedication and lots and lots of practice? I think it's easy to forget just how hard learning to ring is and how much time needs to be invested. The recent retiree recruit has commented repeatedly on how much harder it has been than he expected. — John de Overa

The willingness to stick at it is very important IMO. The ability to cope with patterns is also a good predictor for getting into methods.

But for us, our biggest indicator was whether they came to the pub afterwards. It showed team spirit, a willingness to give up time, wanting to find out more about the theory and mechanics, and an interest in the broader world of ringing.

I don't regret the time teaching the 13 year old, one of our band's mainstays rang for around a year when she was a teen and came back to it 40 years later, so I'm viewing it as a long term speculative investment. In the case of our adult returner, it was clear from the start that despite the big time gap the basics were still in there, she knew when it "felt wrong" would say so and just needed an explanation of what she needed to do to fix things. — John de Overa

Yes, it's a good perspective to have. At university towers, we usually only keep our learners for 6 months to 3/4 years, before they go out into the world - not long to benefit from the fruits of our labour. We do our best to connect them to towers when they graduate, and I'm sure the towers which receive them are pleased to receive existing ringers.

In the same way, we're always grateful for those who learnt as a child, some of whom stopped part way through their teenaged years for whatever reason. I suspect their original towers regretted their loss or maybe thought the effort spent teaching them was wasted. But it helps keep us going. All part of the ecosystem of ringing.

The same can apply to tower outreach. I first went up a tower when I was around 9 at the local May Day fair. That experience stuck with me, and when I saw the change ringing stand at my university's freshers fair a decade later, I was instantly drawn in! It's all a long-term investment.

I have been thinking for a while that something more like 3 ringers per bell is what you need to have a long term viable and self-sustaining band. One, it takes the pressure off ringers to absolutely be there every Sunday or no ringing will occur. With that pressure off, it is easier to welcome ringers who have young children/work shifts/ etc, rather than having them self-select to quit.
Also it gives you some contingency for when or if you lose a lot in one period of time.

I think it could make for a challenging practice night, in the category of good problems to have — Tina

What I'd add is that this number of ringers allows for a bit more specialisation of practices - perhaps ones for foundation skills, one for going into methods, etc. Getting people into methods in general practices dominated by learners is challenging, so changing the structure to give everyone a bit more of what they want would be beneficial.

As for recruitment, my band will take in any competent ringers we can lay our hands on. For learners, we generally try and avoid more than 2 learners to 1 handling instructor as we don't have the resources to offer instruction outside of the practice nights. If you can fit in additional practices for learners, you could probably extend that to four per instructor as long as there are enough existing ringers to be able to put together a solid band on six.

We would not turn away anyone who actively seeks us out as that keenness amongst university students is unusual and indicates a level of self-motivation which could make them good learners. We would however reconsider any plans for active recruitment. If we were well and truly overwhelmed by people wanting to learn, we would look to other towers in the area (perks of ringing in a city). But we would never allow a level of learners which prevented them from learning or prevented the existing band from progressing.

I think official recognition as a piece of cultural heritage would certainly do no harm.

Firstly, it provides us with a boost to one of our core purposes - preserving heritage. Many ringers currently rally around the duty of ringing for Sunday services; this could give them something similarly 'official' to ring for.

Secondly, it gives us a bit more clout when dealing with all sorts of officialdom - redundant churches, noise complaints, etc. "Please don't remove our heritage!" is not as convincing as "Don't remove our UNESCO Assets of Intangible Heritage!". It repositions ringing towards being a legitimate heritage/traditional activity, rather than the preserve hobbyists or religious people (although both are still valid reasons to ring, of course).

In my response, I intend to emphasise the need to consider soundscapes as well as the activity itself and associated physical infrastructure.

Bell ringing as a pastime has been compared to cycling and running, but I think heritage railways are probably a closer fit. It’s an activity that can only take place in a limited number of locations, using expensive and heritage methods. — Alan C

And of course, heritage railways can sell their activity and generate income in a way that bellringing cannot. Really, we need to find a way to monetise it either internally or externally to generate the sums needed for the Exercise to be self-sufficient.

A very unfortunate situation in Wigan. Clearly badly handled, but whether or not your area undergoes such large-scale reorganisation, some church buildings will certainly close. Congregation numbers are still down pre-Covid, and the costs of running and maintaining the sort of churches with bells are steadily increasing.

The CofE has made £6.2m available to dioceses for grants to churches for urgent repairs, however the maximum grant is £12,000 - that won't go far for a new roof, or repairing a structurally unsound tower.

Personally, I am of the opinion that each territorial association needs to be looking at supporting a skeleton network of towers across their areas which are not under CofE control. It will require a lot of money and a lot of vision. Neither of which I have - best of luck to those that do...!

Harking back to the top of this thread, in 2030 (let alone 2040) will there be the churches to ring in? "Others & none" may be happy to ring, but they won't keep churches open and the residents of "All Saint's House" might not want a group of odd bods arriving at 09:30 on a Sunday to wake them up, or for that matter at 19:30 just as they are trying to get the baby down. — J Martin Rushton

And that is another unfortunate issue. Strategically, we are fighting a war on two fronts. A scenario where the part of the Church of England which has bells and is supportive of bells is in decline. Perhaps it won’t be noticeable now, but within twenty to thirty years it may present us with serious issues. Two of the three churches in Wigan with change ringing bells are under threat of closure by the Diocese of Liverpool as funding issues and falling congregation issues really bite. The third and last also has a questionable future. It is very possible that Wigan could be without change ringing within five years or a decade. The parts of the CofE which are doing better (evangelical, charismatic – think HTB) are generally neutral or anti-ringing.

I don’t think other areas will necessarily face the mismanaged mess in Wigan, but we could well see structural issues with towers which prevent ringing not being dealt with due to lack of funds. Maybe we’ll be expected to pay for our electricity usage? I know that this is already done in some areas.
As for how ringing can overcome this challenge, we are faced with two options. Make ourselves valuable to the church community, or cough up to look after existing CofE towers/fund new secular rings where we are an influential tenant rather than last in the queue.

In our neighbouring parish, the old 1860s church has been furloughed for the last few winters, as the congregation size doesn't justify the heating. Services and activities are instead taken in the church hall, although the main church remain available for (unheated) use. It's not a church with bells though. Some parishioners weren't happy but there was notice given, and that was that. If it were to happen to our church, it wouldn't really affect us as we don't ring for services and we don't use the central heating. Given the amount of communication at some churches, I wonder if anyone would even inform the ringers that they had de-camped to another venue!

Greater information both on the Central Council website and in the Ringing World will be arriving shortly from what I understand.

Tristan Lockhart mentioned the Yellow Yoyo report. Please could it be made generally available, urgently?
The reason I ask is that our tower has a massive recruitment opportunity, with a new town being built on our doorstep. But we need to know how to run our sales pitch, and for that it would be a big help to see the Yellow Yoyo report. — Barbara Le Gallez

I would recommend getting in touch with Allison Devine who is the public relations officer (proatcccbrdotorgdotuk) and can point you in the the right direction. There is a report and a PowerPoint; both are fairly long and may not be entirely relevant throughout for local situations, but nonetheless would be most useful. I understand that there are plans for wider circulation.

You aren't exactly making a compelling pitch. Why would anyone put their time and energy into something that appears not to be considered worthwhile or valued? — John de Overa

When people are working on a voluntary basis and have a lot to be getting on with already, you have to bid for their attention, and perhaps include a contribution of your own time as part of the bargain. Young ringers are a bit more of an exciting and mainstream project than improving the environment for older learners, so it's not entirely surprising that more people are developing initiatives for the former than the latter. It's not a great pitch but I don't think there's any point sugar-coating the issue!

as far as I can tell that has been ignored and my feeling is that I wasted my time participating. — John de Overa

This is what my quotes from the report are in response to. It has made its way into the branding report, and the point has been raised at several subsequent meetings too. That is not to say that more lobbying wouldn't be valuable to raise the issue's profile amongst the CC's volunteers, particularly the new Executive.

I'm not sure how broadly the YellowYoyo report has been circulated, but here are a few quotes:

The strategy should attract a younger cohort without alienating older, experienced ringers, and engage with relevant institutions and social media platforms. — YellowYoyo

Craft a compelling brand story that highlights the heritage, inclusive community, health benefits, and intellectual aspects of bell ringing, appealing to both younger and older generations. This would form part of the positioning framework above. — YellowYoyo

I agree that there is no clear strategy for specifically improving the opportunities available to older (50+) learners, but without the interest of people willing to put the time and energy into it, such a focus won't happen.

Still not convinced that we'll be able to recruit 4,000 quality recruits per year, averaging about 80 per association (with the larger associations having to recruit more than this to compensate for smaller associations). But the longer we leave it and the more viable recruits are not recruited or not retained and developed, the bigger a problem we're left with in 2030!

so much of this I want to say 'but it shouldn't be like that' or 'but we never do it like that'. Even teaching other kids in my teens with no access to books or courses I'm sure we did better than that, so I wonder why such customs have become so widespread. We probably need to understand that as much as knowing all the ways to do things better. — John Harrison

Survivorship bias may come into play here, given you made it through. Maybe you always had the skill needed to run a good practice or get people into method ringing? I was not around in such times, so can only speculate.

I find that some towers are unrealistic as to their ability to teach the skills needed for methods and to then teach methods. It usually manifests itself as a headlong charge into methods with minimal preparation, rarely producing any basis for further progression. It then judders to a halt and then there is often not the skills or the humility within the tower to unpick the previous flawed teaching and put it right. The learner is stuck in a position where to progress would require them to unlearn and relearn which can be a difficult and perhaps embarrassing experience, damaging confidence. Perhaps we have to accept that some bands without additional support will need to take a much slower pace into methods than is traditional, or perhaps could instead explore the broad possibilities within the call changes world instead?

However, once we have got our new ringers to ringing Grandsire and Plain Bob, and having put all the hard work in, we wouldn’t want to see the more able ones travel and join another band in order to learn to ring even more advanced methods. That can’t be sustainable, especially if those bands haven’t put the hard work in. It will just reinforce a two-tier system or downward spiral which towers cannot escape from. I don’t mind the new ringers taking opportunities to progress, by ringing with others in the District or Guild, but they also need to remain members of the local band in order to help the others on the lower rungs of the ladder. That way the band as a whole will progress further.

Nor does my local band wish to see our practices over-run by learners from other towers, especially when we may have to invest time in re-teaching some of them to handle, or some of the other basic skills needed to ring simple methods successfully. We support the neighbouring practices where the bands are at the call-changes/kaleidoscope stage, as they have an important role to play in teaching the foundation skills well. — Roger Booth

In several of the areas I have rung in, you need to band-hop a number of times to get the teaching and support you need at each step in the learning journey. Clusters would seem to me to be one solution. You retain the benefit of your effort within the (larger) group but the ringer receives the opportunities they need. It also gives you the structure to be able to nudge people to where they're most needed (e.g., getting a critical mass of ringers for more advanced ringing, teaching handling etc.) without them needing to get in with a new group. You also get more control over the quality of handling etc. Clusters come with their own problems but I don't believe many parts of the country actually have the resources to develop all or even nearly all tower bands into bands which can teach and sustain competency in basic methods.

There needs to be far more emphasis on developing bands, and less on individual advancement. Far more leadership training will help. — Roger Booth

This presupposes that there are enough people with the requisite skills to support the improvement. Whilst in some bands, that talent is already there and just needs a catalyst, in others you would need to attract such people, who are likely to already be going to multiple PNs, and so you'd quite possibly be poaching them from other towers.

I suppose what I am saying is that if a group cannot provide the opportunities needed for progression, then people who are minded to progress will go elsewhere. If the group is lucky, the ringer will stick around to help out at the lower level, but obviously that falls apart if they have to move tower multiple times or move away from the area. Worse still, those who want to progress but can't take advantages of the opportunities elsewhere (due to transport, conflict with PN, different atmosphere in the other band, etc.) will get stuck at the level of the band, potentially sapping their enthusiasm and certainly wasting their potential.

If you look at the ringers who have progressed to the mid and higher levels of ringing in the last couple of decades, I'm sure you'll find that most of them have acted in their self-interest a few times to keep their progression going.

There needs to be a proper pipeline, I don't see much signs of one at the moment. — John de Overa

I'd be interested to know what form this might take. It's difficult for me more towards the lower levels than the higher levels to visualise such a thing!

↪Tristan Lockheart You mentioned going to the pub afterwards after talking about transport. For Londoners (and probably other cities too) talking public transport may be a fag, but at least you can have a drink and get home. Outside London such public transport as there is often ceases early and of course if you've driven to a practice then having a pint or two afterwards is obviously out of the question. — J Martin Rushton

It’s more for the social side of things and band bonding than alcohol consumption (many post-PN pub trips have plenty of Cokes as well as beers), but I take your point. As someone who doesn't drive, I have to be very careful about where I choose to live and I'm very limited in where I can regularly ring too. Outside of the main metropolitan areas, there are few places where I could live and maintain my current lifestyle, both in ringing or more broadly.

Not surprisingly, it sounds like London has a decent pool of method ringers. The ringing in the towers in my vicinity is mostly CCs & PH on 6 with occasional Plain Minor methods, but that requires ringers from several towers. Anything beyond that requires significant travelling, so you need to be motivated to keep moving on. — John de Overa

I think the issue is that your fairly extreme situation still has parallels with the situation in London (although perhaps not to the same extent); here, we have fairly large parts of outer London which are fairly thin ringing territory. There are some towers which provide opportunities, but they are easily 45 minutes or more away by public transport (and of course, more ringers in London are without cars). There are plenty of opportunities in Central London and many in the inner suburbs too, but again you have to travel. I think, as Lucy suggested further up the thread, that older learners (as with younger learners) need to be encouraged to engage with other bands in their local areas from an early stage. This would mean that they are more likely to be open to attending the most suitable practice for their need rather than limiting themselves only to their local band (of course, the hope is that they in time attend multiple practices and in time share the benefit of their skills and experience). Looking to the future, a culture of travel will need to be normalised if ringing is to remain sustainable; we will not necessarily benefit from the same number of towers and bands given church closures and the decline in the number of ringers. We ideally want our ringers to travel further if they are no longer able to ring at their current tower for whatever reason rather than stop ringing altogether.

More broadly, the older learners I know who engage with the wider world of ringing beyond their home PN and Sunday service ringing (ringing outings, other PNs, going to the pub after ringing, the Ringing World, ringing courses, social events etc.) tend to progress more. You have to go out and grab the opportunities and said opportunities need to be out there in the first place. There was a positive initiative in Middlesex recently where new members of the association were invited to try out 12 bell ringing with lots of support from experienced ringers at St Martin-in-the-Fields followed by a tour at St Pauls Cathedral and plenty of opportunity to get to know ringers from other London towers and get an introduction into the wider world of ringing.

83% of ringers want to improve their ringing, which obviously includes older ones. — John de Overa

We were really pleased with this statistic. It shows that there is considerable energy in the exercise which is one thing we'll need in abundance to ensure the continuation of the art.

Whilst there's an understandable focus on youth opportunities I don't think older ringers should be forgotten, as at the moment they are the backbone of most towers, and will be for some considerable time, even if youth recruitment is successful. — John de Overa

Quite. There wouldn't be many young ringers around if it weren't for the older ringers teaching, mentoring, taxiing, etc. for a start! We need to get the balance right between giving special attention to young ringers rather than giving all of the attention to them, if you catch my drift.

Our (not a cathedral) nearest defib available in the evenings is half a mile away uphill at the railway station, and we have a fairly long and narrow staircase. Getting the defib to the casualty would not be quick, and neither would the arrival of paramedics/evacuation of the casualty (it requires the Hazardous Area Response Team specialists and our practice exercise with them took ages to extract the 'casualty', so not going to help in a heart attack situation).

We've taken precautions, such as signage with the tower with the address of the tower and location of the station's defib, instructions to remind 999 that the HART will be required for casualty extraction, and ensured that the ambulance and fire services have information about the constrained access in their despatch systems. Any visitors are advised of the access situation and to consider any medical conditions they may have before going up the tower.

To be blunt, if someone has a heart attack in many towers in this country, their odds aren't going to be great, particularly if there are not people able to deliver CPR in the tower. However, having a defib in your vestry is probably a better situation than many towers will be in. Defibs are not cheap, so I can understand their reticence, although it would be ideal to have one up the tower.

Speculation time here, but what could be the factors behind fewer people going on

• Less spare time? - an open day eats up time on a weekend, and people tend to have busy lives. An ongoing trend throughout ringing and hobbies/volunteering in general - hours are down across the board.
• Maybe people don't like dashing around to get to all the towers? A more relaxed schedule with fewer towers might make for a better balance between energy and tower grabbing.
• You need a car or someone to share a lift with to take part - petrol isn't cheap these days either.

Less dashing around could also increase the quality of the ringing; I for one certainly wouldn't be up to much by tower number 8!

That said, I'd echo @Lucy Chandhial's observation - there are plenty of young people into tower grabbing, so I don't think Open Days will be going away any time soon. There may be fewer people coming onto the tours and thus a lower level of income, but probably still enough to be worthwhile (particularly in areas where Open Days are less common).

We’ve been chasing quite a few towers for a while, asking if they need help, but it seems that those towers that are under strength often have an inexperienced ringer in charge, left over from a once active band. We note from our mailing system that some don’t even bother to open our e-mails or newsletters. The traditional cascade system falls down, and the local ringers are not engaged with the District or the Guild. The response below, received yesterday, is typical of the reaction to our offers of help that we have experienced.

It’s a shame as the keen new ringers who can now ring rounds unaided would love to ring at more than one tower on the big day. Some have been turning up to two or three practices a week for a couple of months, often at different towers. Teaching them has stretched the resources of those of us with active bands, yet it’s the towers in the other two categories that need new ringers the most. — Roger Booth

There's a sort of inevitability in that some ringers just want to do their own thing. In most areas, we are not short of towers, so we have no need to worry about an unproductive band 'hogging' a tower. And given that these sorts of bands are not often willing/able to recruit, there isn't much of an opportunity for them to spread an ethos which doesn't involve visiting and working with other towers. I suspect there is little more to be done if active branch leaders are still not able to effectively get through to these certain towers; too much time can be spent trying to save bands which don't really want to be saved which could instead be invested into those who are willing to engage and accept the help that is being offered.

Never mind church halls, Porthmadog's church has relocated to this rather petite former dentist's surgery! The latest I heard, the Porthmadog bells were to be relocated to Betws-y-Coed, which as the headquarters church of the local ministry area of 7 churches has weekly services and thus a more secure future than many churches in Wales.