Ringing Forums

↪Jason Carter do you mean a simulator practice? Or do you just mean an ordinary practice with bells tied and electronic sound? I assume the latter but the terminology is confusing. — John Harrison

yes I meant a silent practice...

"we" could only ring Plain Bob, Kent, Double Norwich, and maybe Cambridge 8.

"Only". Your starting point is way beyond many of the bands round here. — John de Overa

When I said "we" I meant the exercise as a whole. That is we had to learn to ring advanced methods once upon a time...

fixing my problem wouldn't fix the much larger problem — John de Overa

You have to start somewhere, and you could invite one or two other ringers who also want to progress? If the learners are at different levels, then that would give some variety for the other ringers.

Two towers maybe, either side of a pub lunch?

Once the number of experienced and willing ringers drops below a critical threshold, no amount of "organising" can dig you out of the hole. — John de Overa

Not sure I agree with this. Back in the day, "we" could only ring Plain Bob, Kent, Double Norwich, and maybe Cambridge 8. "We" moved on from this to the standard 8 (and much more) plus, as some still can, some pretty complicated stuff on 10 and 12+.There is absolutely no reason why this cannot happen again, but someone has to organise it. Its about enough people being prepared to do that organising.

I think what you are seeing with your sim practices is the ever widening chasm between "ground floor" ringers and the "surprisers". It's a huge step from PB5 to Camb6/8, not helped by the piss-poor nature of PB as a teaching method compounded by the "by rote" way it is taught. Learning how to learn and how to ring "proper" methods pretty much means starting over for most people, which after endless PB, few have the stomach for. PB nearly finished my ringing career and I had to learn Camb6 (and now 8) unassisted on a tower sim - and it's going to be a challenge to get a chance to ring it "for real" on 8 — John de Overa

Quite a few things here:

1. There is a huge gap between PB and cambridge, I agree. I mentioned Cambridge and London as a link to the original post which was talking about the NW course trying to offer a more "advanced" learning environment. I guess my point that i didn't make was, maybe at some point before we get to ringing Cambridge, we stop regarding ourselves as a learner. But we shouldn't and everyone should continue to push (and pull) those that want to make additional progress.

2. I don't understand what is wrong with PB as a teaching method. It is not much more complicated than plain hunt. There are plenty of steps that can be taught between it and Cambridge, I agree. What would you suggest instead?

3. I am really interested to understand how you managed to learn and ring Cambridge on 6 and 8 without much help? I went from PB to Cambridge in one step and in a couple of weeks, but (1) I was 17, (2) I had a mentor that I could talk to almost daily, and (3) I had a capable band around me (I could literally see the space for me to ring in fairly easily). What do you mean by having to start over to ring proper methods?, and why will it be a challenge to ring cambridge major in a tower?

have you tried to arrange practices at the level you need or want? I would be surprised if some of the group of ringers that you mention would not be prepared to come out and ring changes at any level. Happy to be corrected.

It sounds like there are enough ringers in striking distance of you. Is it the organisation that is missing?

We don't have a problem getting enough ringers to "fill the ropes" for our monthly simulator practice, which tends to attract learners wanting plain doubles. We have recently started to offer a more advanced method to say 'thank you' to the more experienced ringers that are supporting the learners and this is working quite well.

As an aside, our simulator practice doesn't seem to attract people wanting to learn, say Cambridge or London surprise minor, or anything - at all - on eight. Despite the fact there are people that could benefit from that. We haven't worked out why yet... And it is partly why we have started offering the more advanced method to stretch some of our helpers a bit...

Thanks for everything you have done Simon, its clear that you have invested an enormous amount of time and energy, sometimes dealing with challenging subjects and often without much thanks. You deserve a well earned rest.

that is positive, well done!

How many towers could be using it?

There will always be lead adopter towers, could they be supported every week and develop into a beacon of what could be achieved?

I think a model like this could be valuable in lots of areas...

We are trying to drag the scheme into the 21st century, with an on-line signing up system, but we are aware that the personal touch will still be needed. It will all hinge on gaining and maintaining a sufficient pool of volunteers. The pool had got quite small, and it was time that something was done about that in any case. We are just about to start a pilot, and hope it will be fully operational in the spring. As I said, watch this space! — Richard Pargeter

How are you getting on?

Interesting. Two questions:

1. what are wheels made from?, and
2.Whilst I know ash is great, is there no other tree that has similar properties that would do the same job as ash?

Money is a really interesting subject. I do not think I am supportive of an upfront cost which makes it prohibitive for anyone to be able to start their ringing journey. But having said that... if we offered ringing as a night school for example (say £50 for ten lessons) along the same lines of college classes: an introduction to french, or drawing, or whatever it might be: would demand for our Art suddenly appear?, if the supply was created? has anyone actually tried this?

Looking at it in another way, if a very modest charge was implemented instead, so that a "culture" developed of giving little and often then could this achieve a similar amount of funds to the future of ringing? My tower has a considerable amount of funds available to it so in one sense there is no need to introduce a culture of regular small donations, but if we did, and half the average attendance gave £1 that could easily raise £300 a year. That would be equivalent to getting 3 new learners who had stumped up £100 up front and may or may not still be with us. (if everyone on the books gave a £1 donation a week we would easily be talking £1,000). Some of that money could then be diverted to local or central activities.

And then, the new recruits would enter into an environment where the small donations just happened, naturally. And would probably join in with it at an early stage, either immediately or after they had caught the bug. Its harder now, because we are getting much closer to a cashless society, but there must be ways around this I am sure. Would this be a better way of raising funds rather than trying to extract a fairly significant sum from a small pool of new learners that may or may not make it in the medium to long term? When I was learning to ring the standard eight (surprise major), I regularly attended a tower that didn't have its own band as such. But the ringing was of a very good standard. This tower had that culture where most people gave something most weeks. I'm talking 30 years ago but I would be surprised if they were not raising at least £5 a week back then... Much more could be raised now.

1. Be welcoming to all ringers regardless of their ability;
2. Give equal opportunity for band members to develop in their ringing;
3. Expect band members to take ownership of their own development;
4. Create a safe environment for asking questions;
5. If the first explanation doesn't work, try a different one;
6. Strive for the best striking that the band is capable of;
7. Push the band out of their comfort zone sometimes, but not all the time;
8. Share the teaching and calling opportunities with as many band members as possible;
9. Take all ringing sessions seriously, but have some fun too;
10. Never give up on anyone, but be honest and realistic with them as well.

Not sure national or even local press is our only avenue for recruitment though. It has a role but recruitment at a more grassroots level can work as well, and will avoid the sensationalist approach that the national press like.

The problem with a survey is that it is a snapshot at a particular point in time. By comparing it with a previous survey you can see that changes have taken place, or it provides a baseline for future surveys. — Roger Booth

Whilst I agree it is a snapshot, I think that is what we need at the moment. We know we are in decline. What we need to work out is what ringing sessions do we need to offer to tempt people out to develop their experience. The survey wont do that on its own, we probably then need to go back and speak with some respondents to understand what they will come out for.

and yet pretty much all of the £15 could be eligible for gift aid if it was given the BRF...at an extra 25%!! — Philip Pratt

are you saying we only claim gift aid on the BRF bit? Whilst that does encourage that strategy (i.e. stick as much in as you can to maximise the additional cash) it could lead to there being not enough money to do anything else with... And, lots of money in a bell fund just sitting there earning a bit of interest.

btw this is not a G&B discussion, interested in what other associations do :-)

Cambridge is not my aim, there will (hopefully) be a number of methods along the way. And I was 17, yes it was easy and I totally get that the older you get, the harder it is to progress... But you didn't answer my question about how long your learners have been ringing? Mine are still making progress, but are they about to plateau? (Am I about to find out) that whilst they can ring rounds and call changes pretty well, they can't really hear their bell at all, and are not going to progress in plain hunting as quickly as I hope...?

Look at Walworth in SE London, a large number of young ringers from the congregation who aren't white and middle class. They were taught to ring in between two Sunday morning Services, however, there is little interest or support from their parents to go to any other ringing events and integrate with Surrey young ringers, both their leaders are white and from outside the area; they were represented at the CCCBR roadshow in 2019 at Goldsmiths which was right on their doorstep. — David Kirkcaldy

what is the average age of those learners? Take the ringing to them between those two services...When they are old enough they can branch out on their own.

That picture is a Chesterfield District meeting at Old Brampton a few years ago. There were in fact 6 youngsters present. I took the photo because it represented the diversity of ringers in our local area at the time. — Susan Hall

awesome, wish we were the same...

If we want ringers to have a broad repertoire of Minor and Major - ours are not going to make it!! — Phillip George

Why do you say this? It sounds like your band is similar to mine. I have at least 12 ringers in a six bell tower, and I'm probably (very nearly) always one, sometimes two short for Cambridge minor. Most of my learners are in a similar age bracket to yours, but most are less than 18 months into their ringing career... Whilst I am under no illusion that it may be challenging and a long road to get them into multiple minor, I am not yet sure that it is not possible. Are your learners longer standing in terms of experience?

We are ok for the next 5 years or so. After that, I expect that we will start dropping off, so to speak, so planning for succession is our next lmid term project!!! — Phillip George

18 months ago we regularly only managed 3 or 4 for sunday service, now we nearly always manage six, and we are progressing as a band. We will need help to progress, and my branch knows that I will be asking for that help...

I don't think it makes that much difference. Calling up or down leaves at least one bell not given all the info they need to execute the change. Most towers call up so that is what I do. I try to explain that ringers may hear "follow" rather than "to", and some will call down; and some will, as you mention, just call the numbers affected i.e. "23". I try and explain that, as far as possible, you should understand the full order of the row, those behind you and those in front of you, and obviously the two bells in front of you if nothing else. I would also point out that some towers don't ever go there with call changes and just go straight into plain hunt, so there are some quite decent ringers who would potentially struggle to ring call changes if necessary... Homework is also a great option with this. Writing it out helps to get your head around what is going on :-)

I can ring both grandsire and bob doubles reasonably well but I personally think this might be a useful skill to learn especially as my regular tower rings a fair amount of surprise minor and major. — Oliver Lee

can you ring plain bob minor (1) on the treble, and (2) on an inside bell? And (3) what method are you trying to treble bob to?

She's threatening to bring half her class along to learn — Alan C

doubles and triples awesome...!

we have a ringer who learned at the Birmingham School of Bell Ringing and is now a member of the core team who is an atheist who does not feel comfortable calling people to worship — Simon Linford

I know of a few ringers who don't regularly ring on a Sunday. But they will come out occasionally when they are specifically asked, and they do help develop their band in other ways.