Ringing Forums

awesome! Hope she sticks with it :-)

this thread is getting way off the point of the original posers. ANY way of getting people interested enough to start sounding tower bells is an entre to eventual full-circle ringing. — Mike Shelley

(sic)

Mike - I don't think this is off topic at all. The reason for my line of questioning was because I was genuinely interested in how you were getting 10 recruits per annum in through the door. I am sure a lot of towers would be very happy with that. And I was trying to understand whether the recruits are a different breed of people, for example, does the cohort that you recruit have a higher degree of musician/pianist/organist amongst them? What is the nature of the conversation that gets them to turn up? In a tower with bells hung for change ringing but no band what does that look like. I've never come across it so am just trying to understand it. And in my humble opinion, if you wrote an article for the RW, I would think they would publish it...

Many of the ethnic minorities in the UK are Christians — Lucy Chandhial

this was probably where I was coming from...but if I am being honest, I am not sure I have ever rung in 29 years with anyone who is not white...

It’s even harder for someone with an alternative religion to ring for a service which calls people to prayer for a religion they don’t agree with (as an atheist I sometimes struggle with this!) — Lucy Chandhial

Whilst I agree with this, there are probably plenty of diverse atheists out there too. No reason why they couldn't join in, in the same way that you can.

Many new ringers still say they did not know how to get into ringing, that they thought it was an invited skill rather than open to new interested people so the first task is to make it more widely known that ringers are wanted and to make ringing accessible to come and see and learn a bit about it — Lucy Chandhial

is Ringing 2030 going to take this on, because it always comes up?

Sorry to reopen this thread after so long,
— Jason Carter

This topic has popped up again recently and there's quite a long thread on the subject here, which I think you might find interesting.
27 minutes ago — John de Overa

It was me that opened that thread!. My point above was more about: did the ringing community, or more precisely, the "Ringing Word" readership, only read the articles, but not really reflect on what it really meant to them, their band, their area, their branch, their city, etc. Which meant no action was taken. If we do another survey, we need a group of people to reflect on the results, ask questions, and find teams of people, however small that are going to ask: what can we do to change this locally?

Following discussions started in other threads, I have been reviewing the 1988 Survey of Ringing which was a mammoth undertaking that sample surveyed over 500 towers and involved over 75 volunteers. The final report is over 100 pages long.

These 10 questions were posed in the Ringing World in November 1989 and they were due to be debated at an Open meeting of the Council in 1990. What happened as a result of all that survey information? Did any particular strategies come forward as a result? — Simon Linford

Sorry to reopen this thread after so long, I am new to this community... but given my recent thinking in this area and having read the 1988 survey recently and its outputs, my sense is that maybe the ringing community didn't really engage with the questions that were raised by the survey articles in the RW.I mean, nobobdy really asked: so what? That is what we need to do now...

(and no doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong :-) )

Chorley, Lancs, introduces about 10 students per year to tower bells through frame chiming and even Dove's Guide has now included a few thousand additional towers where chiming is the norm. — Mike Shelley

Mike - what are the retention rates either within chiming or change ringing? If I am honest I am with John:

It's great that you are keen on chiming but it's not realistic to suggest that it is an entry point into full circle ringing. — John de Overa

but I am trying to keep an open mind, because I have no experience of this other than occasionally seeing an Ellacombe chime in the odd ringing room...

Yes and Yes — Mike Shelley

which did you try first?

Yes, there is a prejudice against chiming, and it has existed since around the time CCCBR was formed and CRAG missed the opportunity to correct that for the next few generations! — Mike Shelley

Do you ring full circle as well Mike? And do you subscribe to The Ringing World?

why do you think it is a 'lite' approach? And why do you think it is easier for a less experienced teacher? (btw I am very comfortable teaching on my home tower bells but not as comfortable teaching in another tower, due to the relative lack of familiarity with the bells... and I have never tried teaching from the down position...) Very interested to understand your thoughts :-)

As far as making progress goes, from looking at previous surveys, one of the top issues that people raised was lack of opportunities to do so. I don't see any signs that has changed. That is inevitably going to get worse as the number of towers ringing beyond a basic level continues to decline. My own tower had not rung anything beyond PH for the last 46 years (at least). Post COVID we are starting to ring simple methods, with pretty much the same band that was there before. Everyone has embraced the changes, they go off and do homework and are delighted when we manage the next challenge. The tower was apparently the definition of "reached their natural level", but it wasn't so - the problem was lack of opportunity, not lack of latent ability or willingness. — John de Overa

This is very positive John, and I understand from earlier posts that you have written, where your band has come from, so I am glad that you are making progress. I still think some of your band will probably reach a natural level though.

Yes, we need to bring in more people, but if they hit the same roadblocks to progression that have been there for many decades, what's the point? — John de Overa

This is the key problem. I ring in a six bell tower where if we can ring plain bob doubles, that is a good practice night. But I am actively going to "ask" more experienced ringers to come and help my learners develop their ringing, so that they can move beyond plain hunt and plain bob...

Recruiting people when they are young (and retaining them) is clearly what is needed for the long term and I'm sure ageism isn't an issue in your tower, but it's something I and other "mature" ringers in my cohort have faced continually since we started, it's a pretty widely held belief that late starters are a waste of time - I've had people tell me it to my face. I don't think ringing in it's current state can be picky - we need to welcome everyone who wants to ring and make sure they don't meet any barriers to progression, no matter what level they top out at. — John de Overa

100% agree. I am finding at the moment (via Facebook) that it is not too hard to find "mature ringers" (as you put it :-)) I am hoping that maybe RINGING 2030 will help to find those younger ringers, and I want my band of "mature ringers" to be ready to embrace them and develop them when they come online...and that will massively contribute to the future of our art. :-)

We have two already:

1: Devon-style call changes - easier to learn to ring below the balance; quicker to reach an acceptable standard; an end in itself.

2: Bob Minor on handbells - Plain hunt can be taught in a single session; Plain courses in a few more; Quarter-peal as a short-term objective (straightforward if there are two experienced helpers). — Graham John

On item 1 I have often wondered this...would it be better to teach a learner with a bell that is down...and start to ring it up..to whatever level...maybe just below the balance. I am not sure, and I have never tried.

On item 2 I am inclined to agree, this could be an easier way into change ringing... but (caveat) I have found the lower slopes relatively easy. I would like to try some more steeper slopes though... :-)

I don't understand the focus on "learning quickly" either, why does it matter? Which is more use to ringing long-term, someone who learns quickly and then drops out, or someone who learns more slowly but becomes a solid long-term ringer? — John de Overa

"Learning quickly" is not the most important thing John, however it is relevant. Learners that make more rapid progress, do help to progress the general ability of the local band/area, and more quickly, even if they do eventually move away, or even give up. And moving away doesn't matter. One tower's loss is another one's gain...

where are the young people? , and how do we give them the experience/help that they need...?
— Jason Carter

Why is that specific to young people? What about the thousands of existing ringers who have got stuck and aren't able to make further progress? We don't have to recruit or do basic training for those people, they already ring. Why focus on recruiting new young ringers when we can't even maximise the standard of the ringers we already have? — John de Overa

You are quoting me out of context as you are about to say later on... Every ringer reaches their natural level, and many can't move far beyond that. Maybe some can... but many wont be able to. And I think we all accept that we do need to bring more new people into ringing, for the long term good of the exercise. ..

Here is where you quoted me out of progress (by not including this bit)...

That doesn't mean more mature learners should not also be given opportunities to develop
— Jason Carter
— John de Overa

(and its only one aspect). That doesn't mean more mature learners should not also be given opportunities to develop — Jason Carter

Fine words, but in practice mature learners are usually discarded as being a waste of time and effort. The rampant ageism in ringing seems to pass completely without comment, indeed it's the accepted norm.

I note you chose to not include my preamble John. "

(and its only one aspect). — Jason Carter

You are very welcome at my practice. I currently have 8 learners that I have recruited in the last 16 months who are all older than me (46) and who are making good progress. Ageism is not an issue in my tower. But I would like to find some ringers who are younger than me as well. :-) for the longer term health of the exercise.

The fundamental issue is that there are too many platforms or communication channels..(deleted)...and so the proliferation of local, secondary or specialist groups in a plethora of comm's channels took off leading to the fragmentation of the world of ringers. The result is a massive duplication of channels rendering it completely impossible to be certain that any message will reach all of its intended targets.

I guess the only answer is to create yet one more channel that will attract/embrace everyone - or is that what this forum was intended to do?? — Peter Sotheran

We have to move forward as technology progresses Peter, whilst at the same time maintaining older technology for as long as it is reasonably practicable. I would say email is in danger, as is facebook, and we need to start moving forward into WhatsApp and Instagram...

Maybe it is time to stop being embarrassed about holding an election (and having a vote) on committee members. — Jason Carter

and central council members

↪Alan C it represents the views of officers who have just departed. I know no more. New officers are shortly coming into post so hopefully this will change. — Simon Ridley

Maybe it is time to stop being embarrassed about holding an election (and having a vote) on committee members.

I think we need a better profile of the 60+ age group of experienced and capable ringers to give us some idea of the expected rate of loss in the group. I think we imagine the profile to be a straight line but there might be something of a nasty bulge...
32 minutes ago — A J Barnfield

A valid point... but too much detail gives a far too long drop down list. Thoughts on below:

<10 15 <10 15
15 20 15 20
20 25 20 40
25 30 40 60
30 35 60 65
35 40 65 70
40 45 70 75
45 50 75 80
50 55 80+
55 60
60 65
65 70
70 75
75 80
80+


I still think the right hand list is a bit long, (especially if someone is completing the survey on a mobile) but maybe it is manageable.

One aspect of surveyng ringers and the state of ringing that I have been thinking about is the age bands that you might wish to specify. It is easy to just fall into blocks of 10 or 20 years but I think there are much more relevant blocks. Some things are not quite about age anyway – more about circumstances. — Simon Linford

may disagree, but I think young people will, as a general rule, learn more quickly. But... circumstance is everything. A teenager learning in a band who can ring surprise minor or major will very likely be ringing the same within 12 months (I learnt at 17 and I could), but a teenager learning in a band that can only ring plain hunt, may not even be able to do that. But what is the youngest and oldest age where that rapid kind of progress (ignoring the exceptions) is likely to happen? (I'm going to put 14-40 for discussion...)

Or is age irrelevant to some degree? Can much older learners progress rapidly with the right band to develop them? At what stage (again, ignoring exceptions) does that fall away? 40s, 50's...?

Or is that not really why we might ask any questions about age? Instead are we really trying to assess that we have (maybe) 30,000 ringers today, and if we advance forward twenty years, and others things being equal, we will only have xxx ringers...?

Age feels like it is a very macro question. We can look at the exercise as a whole. Or, it is a more macro question: where are the young people? , and how do we give them the experience/help that they need...?

(and its only one aspect). That doesn't mean more mature learners should not also be given opportunities to develop, but that needs to be a different line of questioning, to tease them out.

we need leadership training for tower captains, District/Branch/Guild/Association ringing masters, chairs, PR and comms officers, webmasters etc. This would equip them with tools and help them be effective in their roles. There also need to be ways of sharing good practice and for this to find it's way down to the people who need it.
— Roger Booth

There are plans in the works for leadership courses; it's just a question of finding the right people to run and deliver them and getting people to actually go on them. Anyone with appropriate experience and skills, now is your time... — Tristan Lockheart

This does sound like a good idea... but with 30,000 ringers (or more, who knows) surely there must be a decent core of leaders out there already? btw - I am not saying that means we have enough, more that if we could coax some of those that already have the skills into leadership roles then that would help in itself. (And whilst I am on this subject I will say that I have seen a considerable improvement in leadership from the top in the last few years...) And of course a lot of those leaders will be busy and may often be the ones that only come occasionally on a Sunday morning, or at 8.45 for a course of something and the pub...

It would be interesting to know what is coming, can you offer a taster?, in case anyone can offer additional insight. I'm no expert, but I have learnt a lot from undertaking 360 degree feedback and emotional intelligence training, amongst other things in the past...

ok, try now, sorry I didn't give editing rights...

On filtering if I go in I can see a "reverse Pyramid in the right hand side of any cell in row 1. If you click on that in column "H" then you can hit the blue "Clear" word and then scroll down to find the association that you want to work on. It is not as easy to use as excel...

I am not sure if the filter function carries across to other users so if you can't see the filter then you can add one under the "data" menu at the top. If this doesn't work, let me know and I can email you the file with what you want filtered.

Thanks

you will need to re-apply the filter. It doesn't seem to stay on