Ringing Forums

On the principle of having free Life Membership for long-serving members: imho, it's a pleasant gesture to those whose ringing-energy might be starting to decline, as well as expressing thanks for a long period of support for other ringers.

The use of subscription monies seems relevant. In Yorkshire we spend 10% on a printed Annual Report, (once over 20%). It has lots of information, which in days-gone-by would have been hard-to-come-by from other sources: nowdays it is all more accurate and timely online. We once had members' addresses, and I keep the 2017 edition to-hand on the bookshelf, as that was the last that included them: while, iirc, it was GDPR-worry that terminated the practice, GDPR is a separate issue to how we collectively appreciate long-service to the Association.

More important is the 40%, currently £4.80, that goes directly to the Bell Restoration Fund. The Fund has separate governance from the YA, as charities are required to have. Clearly we encourage all members to contribute, and that particularly applies to Life Members who do not volunteer a subscription. We might do even better for the Fund if we made it easy for all members to contribute any amount they choose (nowt to ...), with their YA subscriptions, and separate from them. That would recognise the legal separation, as well as meeting the Fund trustees' criticism that an expanding proportion of Life Members reduces the funds they have available for bell restoration.

...trying to drag the scheme into the 21st century, with an on-line signing up system — Richard Pargeter

Yes, if we did this, just for our local band, we would have an idea, say by lunchtime of practice-night, of what we might be able to ring in the evening.

Then we could offer a chance to ring PB5/Stedman7/BristolSM/... to one of the local ringers who had previously registered their interest, with the assurance of a competent stander-behind.

Similarly we could ask other local ringers who has previously registered their willingness to help, to extend our repertoire to ... if they were able to join us that evening.

That might all help with the issue that started the thread, how best to have value from the time and effort invested in ringing training.

It would need us all to make commitments-to-attend which are as firm as they are to ring for a wedding, or a Quarter or a Peal ...

In Yorkshire, after 30 years continuous membership, members can apply for Life Membership once they reach the age of 65. Also those who "are unable to continue active ringing" may become Life Members, and we have a form of honorary Life Membership for those who have "rendered outstanding service". Life Members may pay the annual fee (£12) if they wish.

There was a proposal about five years ago to abandon Life Membership, but it was not passed.

Latest blog: ...in Jersey, ‘Plough Sunday’ ...at St John’s Church, when there would be a parade of various farm animals during the service (the geese were the best)...followed by nervous cleaners.
...we are instigating Bell Sunday... 14 May, — Simon Linford

Do we parade ?? Followed by brooms made from old sallies, perhaps ??
:-)

I have improved the layout in Complib (no calls compositions need a bit of help to format neatly). — Graham John

Yes thanks, I wonder if that's a class of compositions that there would be any interest in searching for ??

And to correct my mention of Forward methods posted above:
Forward methods:

• Robert Baker Chambers Bob Major
• St Clement's College Bob Major

Not-forward methods:

• Henry Bemrose Bob Major
• Fielden Bob Major

As I said last week, these MethodLibraryUpdates are usually lonely :-) and it's a brilliant resource to have the methods on Complib, just a click away from a diagram. As my local tower doesn't have the resources to select one of the new methods every week as a challenge for practice night, I'll have to be satisfied with clicking-from-my armchair ...

I was taken by Henry Bemrose Bob which is a new, forward, Plain Major method with no more than two blows in a place. It has a normal seven-lead plain course, and it would be a really ordinary (regular) method, except that doesn't have Plain Bob leadends ..
Its name comes from the performance on Friday 13 January 2023 of 1296 changes at St Peter Derby

Named after Sir Henry Howe Bemrose, [19 November 1827 to 4 May1911], donor of the treble bell in this tower.

Looking at the blueline, it has two-bell work at the front, equivalent to five dodges: looking at Complib's Trivial Variations, there is the link to the five-dodges method Robert Baker Chambers Bob Major, which was first rung and named by the same band in their performance on Friday 25 March 2022, also of 1296 changes.

[Born on 5 January 1850, Robert Baker Chambers] was secretary of the committee responsible for the rebuilding of the tower in 1898, and donated the second bell along with his fellow churchwarden .... He was not a ringer but served as President of the Midland Counties Association of Change Ringers from 1920 until his death [on 18 April 1929]

Comparing this method with St Clement's College Bob Major, the difference is a 14 instead of a 18 as the treble passes between 2nds and 3rds place. Ringing the methods together, it would be possible to leave the St Clement's plain course without a bob, so a hour with pencil and squared paper creates a quarter peal composition with changes-of-method but no other calls.

2345678 1280 Plain Major: St Clements and Robert Baker Chambers, 29c.o.m
=======
5634278 SSSRSSS
4263578 SSSRSSS
5623478 SR
four times repeated

Complib kindly checked its truth for me: sadly I couldn't nudge it to a course-layout similar to the above. (see here - the "7A", which it wrote for itself, has confused it somehow. Hmmmmm).

To return to where we started, the composition also works to Henry Bemrose Bob and Fielden Bob Major (which is St Clements with the HB-frontwork).

...rather odd that we largely keep our plans for peals and quarter peals to ourselves... — Dave Towell

• You plan and dedicate your evening to listening to an orchestral performance
• They play for twenty minutes, and that's the percussionist's big moment ...
• ... when they miss their cue
• The conductor waves the baton, the playing stops, the conductor turns and bows ...
• ... and they all go to the pub, promising to do better next week

:-)

Yes, I enjoyed the diagrams, thanks.

I like this 1998 definition of a Double Method, with my emphases:

What is a double method? It has a special sort of symmetry. All regular methods are symmetrical - if you look at the 'blue line' you will find an axis of symmetry from which point the progress of the line is a mirror image of what has gone before. ...A double method has two axes of symmetry, so that the work on the front when the treble is at the back is the mirror image of the work at the back when the treble is at the front. In fact the whole of the work over the treble is a mirror image of the work under the treble. … Many double methods have double in their name - Double Bob, Double Oxford, Double Norwich - but some, most notably Bristol and Superlative Surprise, do not….

from the CCCBR publication The Tower Handbook 1998 ISBN 0 900271 44 2 Complied by .

The Council, in a new Decision at its 2004 meeting codified a Double Method for the first time, having relied on customary ringers’ terminology before this:

(E).A.7 - A method has palindromic symmetry if it is the same method when rung backwards, that is when the order of the changes is inverted. A method has double symmetry if it is the same method when reversed, that is when the places within each change are inverted. A method has rotational symmetry if it is the same method when reversed and rung backwards.

.
This definition survived in the Decisions until superseded by the Framework in 2018-2019, which phrased the rules as:

4.B.1. Palindromic Symmetry: A Method has Palindromic Symmetry if the same Changes result (after Rotation if needed) when read backwards, that is, when the order of the Changes is inverted.

4.B.2. Double Symmetry: A Method has Double Symmetry if the same Changes result (after Rotation if needed) when reversed, that is, when the Places within each Change are inverted.

4.B.3. Rotational Symmetry: A Method has Rotational Symmetry if the same Changes result (after Rotation if needed) when reversed and read backwards.

Double Methods, as defined in 1998, have a mathematical elegance, are artistically pleasing, help practical ringing and are an essential part of Ringing Heritage. (As an aside, the natural meaning of Double is its two-ness, and this is preserved. Also see here: }

To redefine them, and to do that - in my assessment - accidentally, is a real shame and should be undone.

Turning to 2004, there had been no earlier Decision which tried to codify a Double Method. All ringers reading that new version would, as I did at the time, think it was good-enough. It would have been better to have a proper definition of “rung backwards” to remove any ambiguity. (Brief aside here: ) The Decisions were never designed-as-a-whole and there were all manner of quirks and ambiguities in the wording and it was just-in-passing to notice this one, and forgive it ...

The new Decision then goes on to say that if you now reverse the method, and it is still the same method, then it is a Double Method. That too was wholly in line with the customary definition, while talking of the overwhelmingly predominant (then as now, see current example here: ) symmetric methods, it is saying the same thing as the 1998 Tower Handbook definition, and there was no particular reason to comment. …

But to be pedantic, that full stop between the sentences might have been better as a semicolon. And the last sentence is only worth saying about not-palindromic methods.

Then to 2018/2019: I wasn’t party to all the discussions during Framework development: it seems to me that the 2004 definition was carried-forward without analysing its probably-unintended ambiguity. Using the Framework definition has a not-palindromic method as “Double” with only (in the 1998-terminology) one axis of symmetry.

Sadly I could go on ...

These MethodLibraryUpdates seem so lonely :-)

It's a brilliant resource to have the methoids on Complib, just a click away from a diagram, and ready-to-ring.

Sadly, locally, we don't have the resources to select one of the new methods every week as a challenge for practice night. It would be fun to think that some bands might take this on, and give a user-assessment of one of the new methods each week. Maybe the RW could publish What's Hot On Complib to accompany Bellboard's hotnesses.

Best I could do was click on Sudeley Manor Bob which Complib helpfully identifies as the two hundred and forty-first TrivialVariation of Double Oxford Bob Minor.

It's just too tempting to click some of the others in the list, for example Bob Bob Minor is an assymetric three-blows method; then, less trivially, Double Danbury Bob Minor

-14-1236-1256-36-1456-1256

The place notation shows it's rotationally symmetric (14 to 36, 1236 to 1456), but not in the traditional sense, Double. First rung here. Complib disagrees with my symmetry analysis. Hmmmmm ...

And only 238 more to go ...

I hadn't expected the addiction to ringing to extend to listening attentively to a six-hour peal: I was part of the umpiring team for this peal of 10640 Double Bob Major; Mike Platt as lead-umpire had committed to listen to the whole peal, while the rest of the team were to do a couple of hours each. Mine was the early stint, and it was fascinating. Obviously we had sight of the composition to follow, a ringing-chamber camera relay to watch as well as listen, and cups of tea arrived at regular intervals. So there were no biting-winds and we didn't have to hide in the port, even so the whole six hours were enthralling.

Maybe more advertisements of performances would give us more followers. I have rung in a few quarter-peals (eg here) for specific events and have emerged from the ringing-chamber to applause and tea, and relief that it came-round. Also to the last hour of visiting bands' peals. Sadly without tea.

Here's to those who listen :-)

Philip Gorrod (RW p1188/16Dec2022) also assesses the Attitude of new ringing recruits. I have re-ordered and slightly reworded his original example responses to “why does this person want to learn?”

1● they have read up about it on the internet, watched some YouTube clips, and think it sounds fun
2● they need a new challenge for their Duke Of Edinburgh (DofE) Bronze Award
3● they have always wanted to learn to ring and now have the time
4● they’ve heard that the church is desperate for people to help keep the ancient bells ringing
5● they’ve heard it involves lots of beer and they fancy a laugh
6● they are not sporty but want to get involved in a team activity

Philip also asks will they fit in with the band? How fantastic to have an intelligent 15-year-old learning, but if the rest of the band are all over 75 how long before they feel they don’t fit in? Some are fine with old people: some aren’t!

On answer 2, young people could be starting on DofE and on bellringing without fully comprehending either. It is up to ringing teachers to make the ringing more fascinating and more challenging, and capturing their learner's interest more than their other DofE activities do; so that’s an excellent reason the start ringing imho.

Other RW responses suggest we welcome learners who support the traditions of ringing (answer 4) and the social aspect of being with other ringers, whether accompanied by beer or not (answer 5), will be an important aspect of retention.

It is these three (2, 4, 5) that Philip suggests are poor reasons to start ringing. Discuss :-)

...some ... extreme reactions to the original letter in [6 Jan 2023] Ringing World. — John Harrison

Yes: lengthy responses, some expressed combatively. A summary of some of the thoughts:

… I teach [ringing] ... to share the wonderful activity which has been a significant part of my life… I want others to experience the fun, friendship and challenge of being a ringer… We teach people to ring because the bells are part of the life of the church and wider community. … The church welcomes all, regardless of age and ability, and ... [ringing teachers] should do the same. … Ringing is a church activity and learning to ring at your local tower should never incur a charge. [Learners] come to their own conclusions about their ability ... [and] and until they decide whether ... ringing is for them, I continue to teach and support them. If [they] become a part of the local band, turn up and ring for Sunday service and are enjoying themselves, that is good ...If [they] decide not to continue ... it is time well spent helping to promote ringing and ensuring that more people in the community understand what ringing is about. … — Sally Thomas

...[While businesses] cannot waste time and valuable resources training the incompetent… …ringing has a… greater impact … in many areas of personal, church and community life. ...We are a ringing community, getting together as a team, attaining pleasure in meeting personal and team goals, and as teachers we should be supporting that. … Ringers will come and go as life takes its course. — Mark Robbins

… slow-learner who simply enjoy [ringing] at their own pace, [and] the ... stellar natural talent … all are needed, especially now. … [Give] everyone a chance, and maybe another and yet another [Teachers who] come across a natural talent, a gifted bellringer, ... should pool these talents from various towers … Much like a Centre of Excellence. — Niels Benetar

… from which reactions, there is little enthusiasm for Philip’s charging structure, or for discouraging those who find bellhandling slow-going. Some of us expressly enjoy teaching bell-handling as a ringing activity, while for Philip it was “soul-destroying” worrying at “the utter waste of time” of teaching those who soon give up.

Maybe the bellhandling needs to be separated from the mentoring through competent rounds, different bells and to basic methods.

About Philip’s worry that “Compared with when I was taught 50 years ago there are very few ‘good’ ringers around. If we don’t instill an expectation in new recruits that they are going to be good enough to take over from people like me in due course then in a generation there will be no leaders...”, there is the idea of Centres of Excellence. What else do we need, to identify and encourage these future leaders? Discuss :-)

using your own body is not a physical aid. If it were then all ringers using their hands to control the rope would be using physical aids. — John Harrison

Yes, nice debating point. ...

So, writing the composition on the back of my hand is using my body as a notepad, and that's not a "physical aid to memory", then ... ??

I suspect the real issue is that the Norm isn't as definitive as it might be

Neither ringers nor conductor(s) used any physical aids to memory during the Performance

Oh dear, all those Stedman ringers shuffling their feet ...

9. Dancing Feet Method
Rule: Mentally label your feet ‘Quick’ and ‘Slow’. When you leave the front, jump on the spot so your other foot is forward. If you are affected by a bob at the back, do another little jump to swap your feet. When you are in 4-5 down, look down at feet and note whether Quick or Slow foot is forward. Go in that way.
Usage: This is more common than you might think, including some experienced ringers.
Pros: Foolproof if you do it properly.
Cons: If you have that bad a memory you may forget which foot is which, and you might forget to do the shuffle. Looks a bit silly.

From An Authoratitive Source, here :-)

I can ring both grandsire and bob doubles ... my regular tower rings a fair amount of surprise minor and major. — Oliver Lee

Does Plain Minor feel as comfortable? Ropesight on six can feel a lot harder than on five, so if that feels difficult, so will treble bob hunting.

... often ending with me being shouted at ... — Oliver Lee

Hmm, that might not be helping ...

So ringing-for-practice something that all of the band might feel unfamiliar with at first, you might try Treble Place Doubles, which has the (all are backstroke) dodges in 1-2 and 4-5 as well as a tenor behind to help with leading. :



(Saturn Doubles is the method library name, although the diagram there doesn't quite show the essence of the method)

The Editor was reluctant to see [Ringing Forums] promoted via the Ringing World because of the potential impact on the Letters page. ... — Simon Linford

There's a cartoon somewhere of William Rees-Mogg as editor of TheTimes in the 1980s bemoaning the impact of these new-fangled computers on his letters page. Surprisingly it has survived into the digital age ...

The RW has dipped the occasional hesitant-toe into the 21stCentury: online subscriptions, digital archive, Bellboard ...

... and there have been regular columns of highlights from the ringing-chatlists, and currently Hot On Bellboard prioritises online-likes for Performances into a printed article. Perhaps the rules hereabouts should allow the RW Editor to use our RF contributions on his letters-page(s), combining these two toe-dippings into a weekly most-interesting-letter (or five) ... ??

Use mini rings. It takes 5-10 minutes to learn how to handle a bell and a few minutes more to get the hang of ringing rounds.... — Derek Williams

I was wondering how long we were going to have to wait before someone said that! — Simon Linford

...With the increased availability of computer based ringing software ... — Stuart Palin

Even longer, then, for a hint of recruiting through Ringing Room (Other Online Platforms Are Available).

I wonder if there are any AccursedVirus RingingRoom recruits who have become sufficiently hooked to transfer their enthusiasm to learning to handle a bell ??

And if so, was the RingingRoom skill useful in their retention, or transferrable to their learning to ring methods in tower ??

... I would like to recruit someone to lead a Tiktok and Instagram feed to attract younger ringers. — Jason Carter

I wonder if, in the Old Days, any Association appointed a Letter Writing Officer, with the objective to encourage members to write to one another, and even better to include mention of ringing in any letter written to anyone else ...

Surely the use of any social media is a result of members wishing to communicate with one another, and (different from the Old Days) the visibility of lots-of-activity is that like-minded people may wish to join-in - and maybe even find out more about this ringing-lark because of all the mentions of how-much-fun-it-is, how many evenings-out it generates, and how much time ringers spend in t'pub ...

John [de Overa],In order to comment ... I am unable to find any performances against your name on BellBoard. — Nick Lawrence

I spent an enjoyable couple of hours ... with John de Overa (not his real name) discussing the challenges facing ringing ... — Simon Linford Blog#70

Gosh, outed by SimonL. Are we all that scary hereabouts ? :-)

Yes that sound familiar: from the article

... actively avoided trying anything new that [they] feared [they] might not be competent at. This was certainly a pattern at work, and it was also a trend in [the] choice of hobbies and other life experiences

I just hate others telling me what-to-do, and particularly the stress of not-being-good at something new. I agree with a fellow-ringer's teeshirt "I Don't Want To. I Don't Have To. You Can't Make Me. I'm Retired " So I'm a lost cause at swimming or ballroom dancing - things I ought to have found time to learn when I was young. Sigh.

The message must be to avoid unnecessary stress for a learner, or expose them to lots-of-people-looking-on. Another reason that the five-minutes bellhandling in the practice-pause may be counter-productive, and re-emphasises the benefits of two of three students learning together.