Ringing Forums

As he says it must be a no brainer. If you inherited a rather fine grand piano but no one in your family played and it stood in the corner untouched bar the occasional dusting, what would you do? Keep it 'because granny always loved it' or sell it on to someone who can make good use of it? — Peter Sotheran

That presumes granny hasn't nicked it from the local church. This seems to ignore the fact that bell ringers do not own the bells they ring. It also assumes that ringers are able and willing to travel reasonable distances to ring.

I can revise my earlier comment - if some bequeathed a rather fine grand piano to church but it was never use and stood idle for a decade or more, what should the church authorities do? Keep and let it slowly deteriorate through lack of use and the conditions in whixh it is stored? Or would it be more beneficial to sell to someone who can make good use of it and use the income to add to the usable assets or functions of the church?

I can revise my earlier comment - if some bequeathed a rather fine grand piano to church but it was never use and stood idle for a decade or more, what should the church authorities do? Keep and let it slowly deteriorate through lack of use and the conditions in whixh it is stored? Or would it be more beneficial to sell to someone who can make good use of it and use the income to add to the usable assets or functions of the church? — Peter Sotheran

It would be best to find someone who could play the piano, so it could be played where intended :smile:

Leadership as part of good tower governance has been a recognised issue since I joined the Volunteer and Leadership workgroup during lockdown. Tim Hine, the then workgroup leader, asked me to take on a Leadership Development role. Tim had also indicated that his 6 years as Workgroup Leader was up and he was looking for a replacement. That ended up being me. I retained the Leadership Development hat. I have found out that the Work Group Leader role is more reactive than I imagined. Leadership Development has remained on my ‘To do’ list but is continually pushed down that list by more immediate emerging tasks.

I now wish to recruit a Leadership Development Lead into the Volunteer and Leadership Work Group to develop a Ringing Leadership course that can be delivered as a one off event or as evening sessions on the various weekend ringing courses. I have started producing a course outline which a new Leadership Development Lead may, or may not, wish to build on. If you are interested in the role please contact me at vlleadatcccbrdotorgdotuk.

I am assuming that the instrument, be it a piano or a ring of bells, having been unused for a decade that the church has tried and failed to put it to use.

I am assuming that the instrument, be it a piano or a ring of bells, having been unused for a decade that the church has tried and failed to put it to use. — Peter Sotheran

Then it would be up to the church to dispose of the assets as they see fit. It would seem odd, to me at least, that ringers who haven't been using the bells should try to lay claim to them.

If bellringing was regarded as one overall 'heritage asset', made up of the ringing infrastructure and the ringers, and you were in control of all of it (in particularly you owned all the bells), you'd definitely get rid of the bells that are no good and never get used and sell them to raise money to invest in your places which have the capability of supporting ringing. It's a bit like pruning a rose I suppose.

As ringers we never seem to want to give up on a ring of bells or think they're beyond hope. The argument is that someone might restore the bells, a band might be taught, the congregation might just double, etc. There are instances of this happening which perpetuate the argument, but not many really.

I discussed this with Diana Evan who is Historic England's lead on church and cathedrai buildings and she got it completely. She thought it was probably something that could only be done on a Diocese by Diocese basis.

Another consideration though is what old bells are really worth as I understand from those who know more about bell founding than be that many older bells aren't made of particularly good metal, so would be quite difficult to scrap. By the time you've got the bells out safely, and compensated the donor church, it might have been worth the effort.

Encouraging the Church of England to see their church bells as a saleable asset seems a dangerous precedent. Cash strapped parishes may decide that the whole business of supporting a ring of bells is not worth the effort and either do away with them altogether or go for a more economically viable recording of bells.

The art we practice is archaic, if you question the need to have bells, you question the need to have bell ringers or change ringing at all.

Ringing serves very little real purpose except to individuals who love it.
People in my church and village community are very supportive, and often comment favourably when they hear the bells. But this is because I'm always going on about it.
I post on the village F/B page, our tower F/B page and my own F/B page. We Tweet (X) and Intagram. I talk about it endlessly at the village cafe and we ring whenever we can for any reason. As well as practice night I hold sim practices every Wednesday to try and bring along novice ringers. The vicar is great and supports us, but let's face it, ringing is simply a hobby. We always ring for church services, we enjoy doing this and it's part of the deal but its not the main event any more. We've got 80k (or whatever) worth of gear in the tower and we are determined to use it.
Alan C, I don't like to think of the art as archaic - its not old fashioned, its clever, an adventure, challenging and needs determination and committment, which are surely modern attributes. If it is old fashioned it's because ringers are stuck in the past.
It needs to be marketed correctly. That's difficult!
Ringers need to change their their gloomy and drab ringing rooms, where they can, and get away from the 'we've done this before and it didnt work' attitude, and start being more positive. Many ringers are ringing for themselves and not for the future, or have already given up because they won't ring just 3 on a Sunday!".
I will continue to work hard to save ringing, but having said all that, I fear that just as with global warming, we have passed the point of no return, we have dipped below the critical mass, and decline in ringing within ten years is inevitable in most areas, mine included!

I see this part: “ Many ringers are ringing for themselves and not for the future” as key. Ringing will decline where too many ringers just want to ring for themselves and not to develop others and pass on the enjoyment of their hobby to others. Perhaps this is a missing focus in Ringing 2030 as the marketing to find new ringers will not help if existing ringers are not interested to teach and support those new ringers.

I think it's fairly obvious that 'most' ringers are not the solution to a lot of things. Only a minority have the drive to make things happen, and in fact a lot probably ring more out of duty or habit than being driven by a love of ringing itself. But that's probably true of most things.
In my teens I never thought about the future of ringing, I was just hooked on it and wanted to do as much as I could. In that sense I could be described as selfish and parasitic on what already existed. But my 'selfish' enthusiasm included motivating and teaching lots of other kids to ring, so we had a viable band, and organising lots of quarters and outings that kept the band active.
If we can get people hooked on ringing they will find ways to do things that collectively contribute to the future, even if their motivation is more short term. So the question is how to get enough people hooked on ringing in an expansive way.

Regarding selling unused bells.

Whilst there is no doubt that the legal ownership of CoE churches and bells lie with the Church of England, there persist a sense within communities of them being their churches and their bells. Cultural memory is long, as many conflicts in the world bear witness to. Generations pass down a sense of what is right and of ownership. It is my understanding that Church of England churches and their bells were largely paid for out of the tithes of the parishioners and the gifts of the gentry, for whom the parishioners often worked. Bells were and still are donated by individuals or from funds partly raised by the community, as are church and bell restorations. This feeling that church infrastructure somehow belongs to the successors of people who funded it is explainable.

As the Church Commissioners Report on the future of churches showed there is a problem of squaring the circle between the fact that communities want ‘their’ churches to remain open and who pays. The Church selling off the family bronze and then presumably the silver is not a long-term solution. Sadly, once the Church Commissioners get the taste for selling bells to raise cash, I don’t see them holding to any intention of not also selling off those where there is the capability of supporting ringing, still less investing the proceeds of such sales in ringing. The only financial constraint of them not selling bells and fittings will be that the cost of removal may exceed the scrap value of the metal.

Historic England has some advice on Bells and Bell Frames which might have some bearing on the discussion.

Isn't the Keltek Trust an existing mechanism for dealing with unused bells?

Is there a similar trust for almost unused forums? :wink:

Bell ringing is an important part of the life of many historic places of worship and Historic England is keen to encourage the continuation of this tradition.

Well it's good to know that HE specifically supports bell ringing, not just preserving in aspic.

Introduce Grandchildren to Ringing
We have been discussing Ringing 2030 at district meetings and committee meetings.
Sadly, there are few younger adults with children to take ringing, so we thought about encouraging more mature ringers to take grandchildren ringing.
It's easier if they live nearby but, if they live further afield, it would also encourage them to visit other towers.
We will try to encourage this in our area.
We also have a young committee member who was taught by their grandparent, proving that this can be successful.