• PeterScott
    75
    The consultation meeting on 3Jul mentioned a University Society which has a small number of active residential members, who each pay a small annual subscription, and a large number of alumni-members (who are probably active in territorial associations around the country), who don't pay an annual subscription.

    This arises, most likely, because when it joined, the University Society needed to count their alumni in order to be large-enough to become Representative Members of the Council. With Small societies now able to affiliate, this issue is not now so important for Universities.

    Territorial Associations have both non-resident members and, in Yorkshire, Life Members who are not required to pay an annual subscription. (I declare an interest: I am old enough to be a YA Life Member). If either of these categories are included in the counts of membership, then the effect of the current proposals - the extra cost per paying-member is even greater than the 20p to 40p or 20p to £1 multipliers.

    We might therefore amend CC Rules/Standing Orders to require Small/Affiliated Societies to count as their members-for-CC only those who pay annual subscriptions, and to maintain a list of who those ringers are. That would be one more small step towards creating a direct relationship between individual members and the Council, reduce some of the double-counting of ringers, and maybe slightly reduce the number of Representative members attending Council meetings.
  • John Harrison
    401
    when it joined, the University Society needed to count their alumni in order to be large-enough to become Representative Members of the CouncilPeterScott

    The qualifying membership of a society that doesn't charge an annual subscription is based on the number of its members who are active, ie who take part in a society event during the year.
  • John Harrison
    401
    a University Society which has a small number of active residential members, who each pay a small annual subscription, and a large number of alumni-members (who are probably active in territorial associations around the country),PeterScott

    I can't speak for others, but CUG charges all members a lifetime subscription when they join. It doesn't use the resident v non-resident model that some territorial societies use.
  • John Harrison
    401
    in Yorkshire, Life Members who are not required to pay an annual subscription.... If either of these categories are included in the counts of membership, then the effect of the current proposals - the extra cost per paying-member is even greater than the 20p to 40p or 20p to £1 multipliers.PeterScott

    If you have a significant number of life members the fact that they don't pay the £12 sub seems a much bigger problem than whether the society pays a (much smaller) affiliation fee for them.

    Many years ago ODG realised that giving free membership to members over 65 was not sustainable as the membership ages so we abolished it. All members now pay the same, but at £10 per year I doubt it is driving many pensdioners into hardship.
  • Jane Lynch
    8
    YACR has 160 life members which is 10.8% of their total membership of 1489. Subscriptions are £12 for adults and £6 for those in full-time education.
  • John Harrison
    401
    that's a lot of free memberships. It means YACR is losing £1920 per annum in subs already, and I assume the membership is getting older so the subscription income will reduce further in future.
  • Tristan Lockheart
    116
    The qualifying membership of a society that doesn't charge an annual subscription is based on the number of its members who are active, ie who take part in a society event during the year.John Harrison

    In many uni societies, the students will pay a small fee, and alumni pay nothing, so falling under:

    the number of members paying (or exempted from paying) membership subscriptions in 2024 or your society’s equivalent membership year
  • Ken Webb
    13
    As the proposal is that the Levy per 'member' increases, the definition of 'Society Member' needs to be clearer - overall what I state below assumes ONLY those with Voting Rights are counted in the CCCBR definition in S1.

    I suggest 'Membership' should exclude all those who DO NOT have a vote: so the count for Representative & Levy purposes would exclude: a) non-ringers / b) NRLM's / c) Learners not yet elected a Member / d) 'retired' ringers - not ringing & not paying a sub.& no voting rights.

    That would be a better basis - more representative of the actual number of 'competent' ringers probably able to ring.

    It is odd that the SRCY / CY definition includes assumption that the person is participating or attending.

    The CCCBR Rule 4.2 a) states 'Society Membership'.

    This refers to CCCBR Standing Orders - see Section S1 etc. on pages 12 & 13
    https://cccbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/StandingOrdersdocument-Edition-12.pdf

    S1 Society Membership
    S1.1 For the purposes of the Rules the membership of a bell ringing society at any time (its
    “Society Membership”) shall be defined with reference to the preceding calendar year (or
    that society’s equivalent membership year) as follows :-
    a) where a society has a membership subscription, its Society Membership shall be the
    number of its members paying (or exempted from paying) membership subscriptions;
    or
    b) where a society has no membership subscription, its Society Membership shall be the
    number of its members who either :-
    (1) appeared on that Society's membership list, received one or more member
    notices from the Society and are considered by that Society to be participating
    members; or
    (2)attended at least one event (including meetings, practices, peal attempts, dinners
    and other gatherings of members) organised by that Society; or
    c) in the case of the Veronese Association, its Society Membership shall be such number
    as shall have been proposed by that society and approved by the Secretary.




    Using the Salisbury Guild we have 2 or possibly 3 groups:

    a) I assume for CCCBR purposes DO count as Members & Levy due re:
    1) Ringing Members - aged 19 & over - (no upper age limit) - pay £10 annual (full) subs & DO have voting rights
    2) Ringing Members - aged 12 -18 - pay £5 annual subs & DO have voting rights
    3) Vice Presidents (free)- ringers but in some cases live elsewhere - no subs but DO have voting rights.
    4) Honorary Life Members - no sub/ DO have voting rights.

    b) I assume for CCCBR purposes DO NOT count as Society Members & NO Levy due re:
    1) Learners (£3 fee) - not yet elected a Ringing Member at a Business Meeting - so not included? NO voting rights (May or may not still be a) Learning to ring / may be an Elected Ringing Member / may have ceased))
    2) NRLM (£10 one-off) - assumed to live & ring elsewhere &, if still active, to be a member of one or more other Societies - so not included? No annual subs & NO voting rights
    3) Associate Member (£5 per annum)- non-ringers & ringers who are not active - no subs & NO voting rights
    4) Associate Life Member (Free) - a ringer now permanently prevented from ringing (age/health) - no subs & NO voting rights.

    c) I assume for CCCBR purposes DO NOT count as Society Members & NO Levy due re:
    (Elected) Ringing Members - aged under 12 (free) - NO annual subs & NO voting rights
  • John Harrison
    401
    That seems a fair analysis. Voting members is probably close to the 'natural justice intent' of the rules. I suspect the rational for including (resident) members who are exempt from the sub in societies with an annual subscription was that they would be a tiny minority. I'm sure no society would include the unkown number of NRLRMs who are still alive and ringing.
  • PeterScott
    75
    [160 life members, 10.8% of membership of 1489] is a lot of free memberships. It means YACR is losing £1920 per annum in subs already, and I assume the membership is getting older so the subscription income will reduce further in future.John Harrison
    Yes, it reflects the age-profile of YACR, and other territorial societies, which takes us full-circle to why we (CCCBR) need to be doing something about it, and hence the 2030-initiative and the need for ringers to contribute the £1/year.

    We (YACR) discussed ending our free-life-member concession. I made the debating-point that we would all become living ex-LifeMembers. Also that having contributed thirty consecutive annual-subscriptions, we had done-our-bit, and that age and infirmity might soon reduce active ringing, and it was desirable to maintain the membership-connection even if active participation was in decline.

    We don't think of £1920 as 'lost', but an incentive to recruitment of new, younger ringers to maintain the subscription-income. As discussed elsewhere new ringers now join the Association on the same basis as other Resident ringers rather than paying-the-same but having the title 'Associate'
  • Mike Shelley
    38
    Let's just remember that a lot of the, for want of a better phrase, "less active" membership of County Associations etc effectively cross-subsidise a lot of the youngsters we're trying to get into ringing by donating MORE than their own annual subscriptions - e.g. to BRFs, appeals, legacy funds etc. - without which the finances of those Associations would be in far less healthy states than they currently are.

    I'm proud to be a member of my County Association but cannot attend functions so compensate through spending a chunk of my pension on bell-related costs.

    My home tower is under an embargo on full circle ringing so I frame-chime the bells when I'm well enough to get up the tower. All the debate about the counting or not counting of members is fun but avoids the critical questions. How much does CC need and how much can they morally ask from the bell-sounding community.

    Enough debate - cut to the chase.
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