Ringing Forums

do you envisage this operating within a band or across several bands in an area? That would affect the logistics.

probably either a whole branch, or a whole association, so say 100 people or 1000 people

The only formal mentoring I’m aware of in bellringing is in ART, with teachers having a mentor whilst new to teaching handling.

One possible option would be to have access to the church or church hall for up to an hour before a district practice so that people could meet and find a quiet place to talk but still in a defined space with other ringers around them.

I would also question whether a one to one mentor is what is needed or whether small group learning sessions, away from ringing time, would be more useful as people could join the level or topic useful to them in groups of three or four and learn from each other as well as from the nominated expert.
It depends a lot on what you are aiming to achieve but in our district we find training sessions which include a theory session are well received (sometimes on zoom and sometimes in the tower before ringing starts).

As people learn at different speeds and in different ways you would probably need to consider swapping mentors, for at least some people, as often as twice a year.

I think it’s quite important to set clear expectations - a mentor cannot ‘fix’ or ‘solve’ every struggle for a learner, equally they should not start getting into personal assessments of future capabilities, there should be clear learning goals agreed and some clear definition of the time the pair will invest, probably including ‘I’ll come to your practice on the first Tuesday one month and you can come to my practice on the first Wednesday the next month and we’ll meet half an hour before the practice to talk’ or similar.

If you do try this it would be very interesting to hear the results and feedback six months and then a year later as this could be useful for many associations.

I would also question whether a one to one mentor is what is needed or whether small group learning sessions, away from ringing time, — Lucy Chandhial

One to one mentoring already happens, informally or formally, so I’m surprised by the suggestion that it’s not needed.
I’m not aware of group mentoring outside of courses, but it could offer the benefits that come from shared learning. It could also be easier to match the numbers of available mentors to those needing mentoring.
With such obvious benefits I wonder why it is so rare.

One possible option would be to have access to the church or church hall for up to an hour before a district practice so that people could meet and find a quiet place to talk but still in a defined space with other ringers around them. — Lucy Chandhial

One to one mentoring already happens, informally or formally, so I’m surprised by the suggestion that it’s not needed. — John Harrison

I run 1 hour sessions each week in the tower with the simulator and a tied bell. There's only 1 or 2 people present and they usually come with something specific they want to look at. There's as much discussion as there is ringing and it's a completely different feel to normal practices, far more relaxed and if they want to (say) spend 15 minutes nailing their 5/6 down dodges, they can. It wasn't difficult to organise and the feedback I've had has been very positive. The benefits have been obvious in subsequent band practices.

I was pondering this earlier this week, there are 223 towers in Dove with simulators. To have a simulator installed suggests the tower has an interest in teaching beyond just regular practice nights. What would it take to set up a "dating agency" to allow people to book a tower + tutor on (say) a Saturday morning?

It depends a lot on what you are aiming to achieve but in our district we find training sessions which include a theory session are well received (sometimes on zoom and sometimes in the tower before ringing starts). — Lucy Chandhial

I’m not aware of group mentoring outside of courses, but it could offer the benefits that come from shared learning. It could also be easier to match the numbers of available mentors to those needing mentoring. — John Harrison

As I've said on another thread, I'm running a theory session tomorrow for our band, something that was specifically asked for at the last tower AGM. I also floated the idea on one of the Facebook learner's groups and had about 40 expressions of interest, so I do think there's a demand.

With such obvious benefits I wonder why it is so rare. — John Harrison

Perhaps it's a case of "We've always done it this way"? Whilst it's true that at the beginning learners mainly want to just get onto the end of a rope and ring, I think they get to a point where they realise they need to know something about the theoretical side, if only so they can decipher the gobbledygook the "Grown Ups" keep using. A wise ringer told me "Always keep your theoretical knowledge ahead of your practical ability", which turned out to be excellent advice. I do wonder how much lack of theoretical understanding plays in people getting "blocked" at the Plain Bob stage? by-rote Circle Of Work will get you so far, but I think it's as much of a dead end as ringing by bell number is.

To have a simulator installed suggests the tower has an interest in teaching beyond just regular practice nights — John de Overa

Sadly that's not true. Many towers install a simulator mainly to provide cheap sound control. And of those that might have installed it to use as a teaching and development tool, that is oftenh driven by a keen individual so after he/she becomes inactive the simulator sits unused.

true, and there will be other towers which have traditional sound control or which don't have an issue with unrestricted ringing - but having a simulator is at least a starting point for identifying candidates.

Two thoughts, come to mind in relation to this, suggesting that individual mentors may not be the ideal answer.

First was a recent experience training for the RoSPA advanced, driving test. I was given a very nice and entirely competent tutor who just didn’t work for me. He was far too nice, telling me how good I was, but failing to pick up on issues I needed to improve on. Fortunately I was able to change tutors, but it was not an easy situation for a while.

Second, I’m in print saying ‘take advantage, not umbrage’ with reference to other people giving advice to ‘your’ learners. The other side of that coin is that I advise my learners to listen to anything they are offered, and to make use of anything that makes sense to them. The point is that everybody’s mind works differently. My way of explaining something may not be getting through to them, but somebody else’s may work.

So, in summary, I think I’m saying that an open culture where everyone feels able to offer advice, and everyone listens to advice which is offered (not necessarily the same as accepting it!) is what we really need. It is also worth saying that in such an environment, questionable advice will quickly get picked up and debated, and that learners feel able to contribute as well. Their ’recent learner’ perspective can be particularly valuable.

I think I’m saying that an open culture where everyone feels able to offer advice, and everyone listens to advice which is offered (not necessarily the same as accepting it!) is what we really need. — Richard Pargeter

Yes and no. That is a good culture, but I think it falls short of mentoring. In a culture of open comment people will comment when the need arises, but something significant is needed to trigger the comment. So advice is likely to be limited to situations where something has gone awry. But with mentoring there is an expectation of regular feedback.

Thank you John. I’m pleased to say that our culture is such that feedback after a touch is normal, and a ‘significant’ issue is not needed to trigger a comment. There is an expectation of regular feedback, and we’re all looking out for each other; just nobody thinks of it as ‘mentoring’. And, of course, it’s not only feedback, but explaining stuff (theory, the next stage…) as well. It works well locally, providing there are enough people capable of providing the appropriate guidance, but I can see it would be more problematic at Association or even District level.

Two thoughts, come to mind in relation to this, suggesting that individual mentors may not be the ideal answer.

First was a recent experience training for the RoSPA advanced, driving test. I was given a very nice and entirely competent tutor who just didn’t work for me. He was far too nice, telling me how good I was, but failing to pick up on issues I needed to improve on. Fortunately I was able to change tutors, but it was not an easy situation for a while. — Richard Pargeter

It would be necessary to have a cooling off period or a walk away no questions asked approach and then try and find a new mentor if this happened, because we know for a fact that not all ringers get on with all other ringers...

So, in summary, I think I’m saying that an open culture where everyone feels able to offer advice, and everyone listens to advice which is offered (not necessarily the same as accepting it!) is what we really need. — Richard Pargeter

Absolutely this is the best approach but if that was ever a thing in ringing I would suggest it is now only working in some locations because either there isn't the critical mass to still support it, or some towers do not appreciate someone coming in and passing any sort of comment whether offered in a friendly way or otherwise. Therefore a more formal approach would be better for those people that would like to participate and that is better than maintaining the status quo?

I am not sure if you would call this mentoring but I run mid-week daytime improvers group sessions, I am sure like many others do. These are aimed at mature learners and utilises a branch ringing centre with simulator facilities. These sessions focus on core bell control and situational awareness skills (aural, visual, feeling and rhythm). Unlike normal practices, much of the time is spent debriefing and explaining. So each exercise, be it rounds, call changes, kaleidoscope or hunting, results in some constructive criticism or praise. I only started these sessions in the autumn of last year, but I am finding that being able to talk through points slowly, being able to judge if I am getting my message across and trying different ways of explaining points is more effective than the real-time comments that learners normally get from someone standing behind them. Feedback for the group suggests that this method is appreciated.
Once a month we put this all together at an open practice at difference local towers supported by enough helpers to have one per rope, either providing a solid band or standing behind a learner.
I am not suggesting that this is anything novel, just putting it out there as an example of a sort of mentoring.

being able to talk through points slowly, being able to judge if I am getting my message across and trying different ways of explaining points is more effective than the real-time comments that learners normally get from someone standing behind them — Paul Wotton

I wouldn’t class standing behind as mentoring, it’s just reactive support. However, following up after the ringing stops can be a good opportunity for a mentor to offer considered comment on the ringer’s performance, with more immediacy than when offering off line advice.

I run mid-week daytime improvers group sessions, I am sure like many others do. These are aimed at mature learners and utilises a branch ringing centre with simulator facilities. — Paul Wotton

We run small group sessions, and have done since I started teaching people. At the start it was a handling session, as people progressed it's moved on to learning methods. It works extremely well, it's a low pressure environment and people can discuss and go over the same thing as many times as they need. It means that band practices are much more productive as people come far better prepared. This approach should be standard practice, the current way most teaching is done is like expecting someone to learn an instrument by playing in gigs...