Ringing Forums

the majority have ringing parents — Simon Linford

Yes, but in the case here he didn't start long after his mother, rapidly overtook her and now helps to support her.

the majority have ringing parents - about 80%. Having ringing parents is a huge advantage. — Simon Linford

Interesting, I guess that's not a new phenomenon in terms of those who make up elite ringing? But it's also going to be affected by ringing's demographic issues, albeit with a one generation delay.

There is so much frustration here, and understandably so.

The bottom line is that within ten years a lot of us are going to drop off the ringing scene. We still have a lot to offer but in most cases (generalisation) our recruits are just not up to change-ringing. Let's imagine that the number of ringers we have nationwide was not a problem and we had all our bells ringing on Sundays. What percentage of these ringers would achieve anything beyond Plain Bob and Grandsire (basic change-ringing)? I don't think it would be any greater than it is now, partly because few ringers actually want to move on. Bell ringing is usually not the only thing they do, it isn't easy, and change-ringing is even more difficult!

We should always set high targets and standards but they must be realistic. My original wish was to have a surprise minor band in my home tower. Pigs may fly!! Now, my wish is that we ring all six on Sundays.

ARA is an excellent way of helping top-end ringers and in doing so maintaining that superb ringing standard. But good change ringing isn't going to happen at a local tower level (generalisation). Middle aged learners will be lucky to ring PB5 etc and the effort in teaching is enormous.Young ringers are as rare as hen's teeth!

But the problem doesn't just belong to those in charge. I've told our ringers that they've got to work harder in their ringing, visit other towers, go to meetings, get experience, talk about ringing to others and help get recruits. However enthusiastic I am counts for nothing if others don't step up to the mark. I carried out a risk assessment for our tower and have given it 5 years! Therein lies the problem - most ringers everywhere are not aware of the impending crisis!

I'm dedicated to my ringers, (SIM practice weekly for those who are interested, including some from other towers), but they'll need another teacher in a few years time, and that's an enormous problem because we can have as many ringers as we like but with no teachers we're sunk!

In the meantime I occasionally ring the SIM for my own entertainment and to maintain my standard, and organise a few QPs here and there to enjoy good ringing with other like-minded folk.

What percentage of these ringers would achieve anything beyond Plain Bob and Grandsire (basic change-ringing)? I don't think it would be any greater than it is now, partly because few ringers actually want to move on. Bell ringing is usually not the only thing they do, it isn't easy, and change-ringing is even more difficult! — Phillip George

You are absolutely right, you only have to look at the original "Room at the Top" series, published over 20 years ago, to realise that the learning curve has always been steep and the drop-off rate huge. But support for those who have the potential and the desire to progress is often non-existent. There's no point worrying about recruitment for method ringing if there's no path for the majority of people beyond PH/PB.

I've told our ringers that they've got to work harder in their ringing, visit other towers, go to meetings, get experience, talk about ringing to others and help get recruits. However enthusiastic I am counts for nothing if others don't step up to the mark. — Phillip George

Again you are right, but I think that's a cultural issue. It's a big step for many adult learners to put themselves back into "learner" mode just in one tower, expecting them to do that in multiple towers is an even bigger ask. But it can be done, one guild I ring in has a "cluster" approach and it's the norm for people to ring in more than one tower from the start, because the existing ringers are mobile so there's nothing unremarkable in doing so.

I’ve rung in two peals, one hanging on the back, one trebling to plain bob minor.

I think I’m fairly unusual in that I’m prepared to have a go just because it’s there. Ringing for around three hours scares most off, they seem quite happy to settle for quarter peals.

The opportunity to ring a peal is quite rare, for me an annual chance in the Association Peal weekend. However, this comes with strings attached. Those experienced ringers who support tend to be more enthusiastic if a first of some sort is to be achieved.

A whole raft of situations led to me attempting to treble to PBMinor for a peal, before I’d attempted a quarter. It turned out being a like it or lump it scenario if I wanted to ring a peal in 2025. It didn’t go well, luckily there were 5 excellent ringers who didn’t need a treble, which was handy because in all honesty they didn’t get one for much of the time.

I’ve floated the idea of half peals as a bridge to peals which went down like a lead ballon for reasons I’m still not sure about.

An easy answer to get people ringing peals? Don’t think there is one.

With all this discussion … what efforts have we made to encourage peal ringing ?

I’m 38 and only had 2 opportunity to ring a peal!
Tbh I’ve not rung that many quarters either.

For me, I spend a lot of time teaching people to ring, who aren’t progressing to this state.
There are issues in some areas with people putting the effort into ringing to progress and elsewhere people not getting the support and aspiration.

My area also has a solely older ringing population, I’m the youngest ringer and one of the most experienced. So some of this comes down to recruitment.

But from my area, we don’t have enough effort to get people to ring touches!
I’m running a basic training day, but only 1 person offered to support organising.
We need to get a strategy to improve peal ringing

It's not just the decline in peal ringing we should be concerned about. There has been a gneral decline in the frequency of meetings and the interchange of ringers between neighbouring towers.

Some old diaries from the 1970s came to light following our recent house move. Flipping through the pages, I was surprised at how much ringing I was doing then - regularly out almost every night of the week and frequently travelling up to 120 miles (there & back) to attend a local branch meeting in the extremeties of the branch. Mind you I was then in my 30s so perhaps it was down to youthful enthusiasm! Nevertheless, branch meetings which used to be a montlhy event are less frequent now and sadly my peal-ringing days are well behind me now.

We need to get a strategy to improve peal ringing — Martyn Bristow

It's not just the decline in peal ringing we should be concerned about. There has been a general decline in the frequency of meetings and the interchange of ringers between neighbouring towers. — Peter Sotheran

You are absolutely right.

If the FA said its strategy for Football's survival was to depend on the offspring of Premier League players, the reaction would be incredulity and derision, yet apparently that's the strategy that the ringing illuminati think will work. Survival depends on grass roots ringing but, as has already been said, the gap between basic ringing and method ringing is already unsurmountable for many keen ringers. And that's irrespective of age - we have a 12 year old in our tower who shows promise, but there's nowhere he can realistically go for progress beyond the basics that we can offer him.

Every time this comes up I'm reminded of Ruth Eyles's Keeping People Ringing presentation at the ART conference 11 years ago. You can perhaps quibble with some of the details, but the principle of concentrating on growing the grass roots and then the elite levels will follow seems incontrovertible, yet it's fallen on deaf ears in the ringing community.

My conclusion is that we'll have to wait until the current upper echelons of ringing are gone and ringing has gone through a near-death experience before there's a realistic chance things can be turned around. But I don't expect I'll still be ringing when that point arrives. The problems have been known about and discussed ad nauseam for literally decades yet things have only continued to get worse. The incontrovertible inability of those running ringing to address the issues shows the continuing lack of realism, despite the starkness of the situation.

indeed
There are a lot of problems to fix, and we need people to come together and agree to the future.
Ringing 2030 addresses that partially, but that relies on its leaders driving it on

I keep meaning to look into the data of peals and quarters but i never get time

Ringing 2030 addresses that partially, but that relies on its leaders driving it on — Martyn Bristow

Ringing 2030 is irrelevant, it's a top-down effort where the same people that have been talking amongst themselves for decades about elite ringing are doing the same yet again. It will not fix ringing's grass roots problems.

I keep meaning to look into the data of peals and quarters but i never get time — Martyn Bristow

That's also irrelevant, it's solely a measure of elite ringing, and I suspect mostly of how many elite ringers are now retired and have more time to ring peals. It's also a very lagging indicator of the state of ringing.

If you persist in measuring the wrong thing and then basing your decisions on that it's inevitable that your decisions will be wrong.

very true
I’ve been trying to fix that but it’s hard work…
The problem?
In my opinion people don’t take ringing as serious hobby with commitment.

with respect, Ringing 2030 is solely about growing grass routes ringing in a sustainable way. But also keeping the grass routes growing, as people have joined and faded due to poor opportunity.

The work I’m doing is all about getting new people onto towers, getting a better balance and with better awareness.
If there’s any other ideas to fixing the grass routes please suggest and get involved

University ringing societies have come up a couple of times in this discussion, as being the recruiting ground for the Black Zone of the future.

Research conducted by the Young Ringers workgroup has found that most of the leadership and organisation at university societies is undertaken by existing ringers progressing to university. Most of these aren't coming from the major hubs where @Simon Linford is expecting the Red and Black zones of the future to mainly be, so the anticipated decline will affect the vitality of the societies.

There is also a dependence on local support for both teaching, handling and providing support for more advanced ringing. If this local support also falls away, then again, the vitality of the societies is affected.

The consequences of a decline in any one part of ringing can therefore have a widespread impact. University societies provide a supply of ringers who move around the country to new areas, many bringing with them experience in organisation and leadership, and an interest in progressing further. Often, they'll make a big impact on the viability and vitality of ringing in the areas they live in after graduating. A decline in the university societies will therefore have a far-reaching impact at all levels of the exercise.

With the current structure and dynamics of ringing, it is not sensible to expect any decline within one area or part of ringing to be contained and not spread to other parts of ringing.

A committee member of my association has not rung a peal, and I offered to get him (guaranteed) through PB6, to which his response was:
“A friend recently rang her first peal, and she said ‘Never again’, so I won’t take-up your offer”.
I despair!
Slightly digressing, I believe that PB5 (or G5) is the wrong introduction to method-ringing, as it “comes round” before you get to understand the structure of the method. PB6 gives more exposure to the method, and the cyclic logic is not interrupted by long 5ths. My first attempt at change-ringing was PB8, on a practice night, with a good band, and after doing the homework, I rang it faultlessly the following week. Having to sit out during other methods was my inspiration to do more homework!

interesting
I’ve got rung a peal, and only been offered 1 attempt.
I barely ring quarters due to lack of opportunities and ringers. Which is a shame

People say build your own opportunities, but I can’t get ringers of 5 years to ring PB5 and they’ll only bring plain G5…
After 5 years!

Branch events im lucky to get G5 due to poor engagement

Ringing 2030 is solely about growing grass routes ringing in a sustainable way. But also keeping the grass routes growing, as people have joined and faded due to poor opportunity. — Martyn Bristow

R2030 has been going for 3 years now, nearly halfway to its target date and it's had no impact whatsoever on the ringing in my area, in fact most ringers here have never heard of it.

R2030 is a misdirected flight of fantasy. The emphasis is entirely on young (i.e. under 30) ringers, "young" appears 7 times in the "business plan", "adult", not at all, despite the fact that most people currently turning up at towers wanting to learn aren't in the only demographic R2030 considers worth attention.

As for the fantasy target of 10,000 new ringers with 50% retention, according to Dove there are "1,602 full-circle rings which are in the British Isles, have 6 bells, are ringable, and have a practice". So in the next 4 years every one of those towers is going have to recruit, train and retain at least 12 new ringers, assuming every single tower is capable and willing to do so. It's utter nonsense.

The work I’m doing is all about getting new people onto towers, getting a better balance and with better awareness. If there’s any other ideas to fixing the grass routes please suggest and get involved — Martyn Bristow

I admire your tenacity and wish you the best of luck, but I believe that with the current strategy and glacial rate of progress, you are doomed to fail. As for involvement, why would I participate in something that isn't interested in addressing the challenges faced by ringers such as me? I have "engaged" in the past, I was briefly a non-voting member of the ART board, brief because it quickly became obvious that what was required was a compliant gopher, not someone to represent the silent, struggling ringing majority.

One of the biggest problems that ringing faces is that it's already fractured into two halves, with the top half thinking that they know how to fix things based on attempting to wind the clock back to how ringing was when they were learning, almost universally when they were young. That world no longer exists and can't be regained. As I've said, my belief is that until those people are gone, ringing will continue on its death spiral.

until those people are gone, ringing will continue on its death spiral. — John de Overa

And what do you expect to be left behind if/when they have all gone?
In our tower the ‘top end’ ringers that you want to depart range in age from under 18 to over 80 so it will be a long wait.

There is also a dependence on local support for both teaching, handling and providing support for more advanced ringing. If this local support also falls away, then again, the vitality of the societies is affected. — Tristan Lockheart

Yes, you are completely right. The video I posted a link to earlier about British Cycling's experience of how deliberately focusing on the grass roots is a clear demonstration of how interest and activity at the lower levels of an activity is a prerequisite for a vibrant elite level, but ringing somehow believes it is different. It isn't.

With the current structure and dynamics of ringing, it is not sensible to expect any decline within one area or part of ringing to be contained and not spread to other parts of ringing. — Tristan Lockheart

Agreed, it's an idiotic belief. But apparently widespread.

And what do you expect to be left behind if/when they have all gone? — John Harrison

If it is to reverse decades of decline it will have to start growing again from the roots, not the top. Will it be able to do so? I don't know but I'm doubtful, particularly as many of the facilities we depend on are at risk as well.

In our tower the ‘top end’ ringers that you want to depart range in age from under 18 to over 80 so it will be a long wait. — John Harrison

If your tower was representative of the majority of towers, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Ringing, in particular elite ringing, is dominated by network effects, and in many places, that network has already gone. And in others, its unsustainable.

while yes it is part way through its journey…
The aim was never to have done the recruitment done by 2030 but set it up with structures and plans in place.

The reason there is a lack of visible progress and delivery, is due to a lack of resources and engagement.

Ringing is led by volunteers, and there’s been a struggle to get contributions to the tasks.
Personally, I do what I can .. but I have a full time job and a tower to teach

The aim was never to have done the recruitment done by 203 — Martyn Bristow

Sorry, no, the R2030 document says exactly that:

• 10000 more active ringers by 2030 (new and returning)
• Half of them under the age of 30
• 30000 people under the age of 20 have heard about or had a go at ringing
• Retention rate of at least 50% of new recruits
• Double the number of teachers and trainers of ringing

Ringing is led by volunteers, and there’s been a struggle to get contributions to the tasks. — Martyn Bristow

How is that surprising when it offers nothing at all for the people who are most likely to have the time and inclination to help? Worse than that, ringing culture in general tells them that they are not of any interest, have little to offer and won't ever amount to anything.

Personally, I do what I can .. but I have a full time job and a tower to teach — Martyn Bristow

Same here - I'm still working full time and have taught half the people in our tower how to ring, even though I'm a "Will never amount to anything" ringer myself. I didn't do it because I thought I was well qualified, I did it because there was literally nobody else, and the tower was dying.

I admire your determination, but personally I've had any temptation to involvement repeatedly beaten out of me. Good luck!

It's not just the decline in peal ringing we should be concerned about. There has been a gneral decline in the frequency of meetings and the interchange of ringers between neighbouring towers.

Some old diaries from the 1970s came to light following our recent house move. Flipping through the pages, I was surprised at how much ringing I was doing then - regularly out almost every night of the week and frequently travelling up to 120 miles (there & back) to attend a local branch meeting in the extremeties of the branch. Mind you I was then in my 30s so perhaps it was down to youthful enthusiasm! Nevertheless, branch meetings which used to be a montlhy event are less frequent now and sadly my peal-ringing days are well behind me now. — Peter Sotheran

Which hobbies these days are able to command such devotion? Modern life doesn't give that sort of time; it also gives people more options for recreational activities, even within a particular niche. I don't think we'll have so many young Peters travelling around the county to attend ringing sessions.

It's not so insurmountable; we just have to use the time ringers have available more effectively. Less throwing ourselves towards as many practices as possible, more targeted practices for ourselves and looking to see what we can do to have the best impact on ringers on other rungs of the ladder.

Please understand that I am speaking in general terms here!

We shouldn't be recruiting with the expectation that new ringers will become peal ringers! That's simply fairy-land. Dare I say that many of us on here learned as teenagers which gave us a superb advantage. Most adult learners will not become advanced change-ringers! They often don't have the time or interest to dedicate themselves to the task. Neither do they have the benefit of ringing in their formative years when learning is easier! Ringing is difficult to learn!

Just as important, most towers don't have experienced ringers to help them become change-ringers, even at the PB abd G5 level, and certainly even fewer conductors, so new ringers have to travel to training centres or other towers, if they are available.

But, we should be recruiting ringers to become good, steady and reliable at whatever level they can achieve, so that all our bells are rung on Sundays and we can begin to build up our bands again. Mature learners are key to ringing survival. In our tower we encourage progression and give every help we can for ringers to take the huge steps on from call changes to PB and G5. It is very slow work but some have rung quarter peals satisfactorily. As for the universe and beyond, I don't think we're going to get out of the Earth's atmosphere, but our well struck call changes are really enjoyable!

Young ringers need special treatment - firstly support from their parents, then encouragement to ring where they can and also join young ringers groups. We have one 12 year old and I arrange a QP for him every half term holiday which includes some of my external QP band, who are very supportive. Proud moment recently when we visited St Neots and he rang the 29cwt tenor!

Ringing 2030 is just a wish list and too few people will buy into it, indeed too few ringers will ever hear about it! Those of us who can, and who care, must continue to work hard in our recruitment and training work. I'll settle for R&CC!

that is very true
The efforts need to be tied to that
But to develop young peal ringers, you need to attract them. So perhaps teaching adults who are their parents/granparents is a strategy
As well as developing bands to support whoever wishes to ring going forward.

However one concern I to have, is regularly my local tower doesn’t ring on Sunday because the band can’t commit, and when they do ring they can only do jump to changes so it actually sounds … poor!
While it’s nice they ring, it doesn’t reflect well on ringing

We do need to be encouraging progression in ringing
Or there won’t be welcome towers or bands to support people

When I rang my first peal in 1992, I rang the treble to plain bob major. There followed peal of Grandsire Triples inside, Tenoring behind and other fairly "simple" performances. This meant I was able to get experience of ringing at a higher standard and for longer periods of time, without worrying about method complexity. One effect of the historic increase in peal ringing has been that the complexity level and entry bar, has hugely increased, I suspect leading to an exclusion of many ringers who would ring regular peals but cannot or do not wish to because of the high bar of entry. Looking 100 years ago a majority of peals were of of Grandsire, Stedman and Kent. Then, a young ringer with good striking capability, would be welcomed, today they would be excluded after a few peals if they did not ring Surprise. There is a certainly a place for cerebral excellence, but non-cerebral peals are often sniffed at by the very people in a prime position to offer opportunity to the in experienced. Some years ago I was asked to join a regular peal band but it was made clear to me that unless i was prepared to learn 23 method in as many weeks, I was not welcome. Lacking the time and brain to do this, I declined. This band has since collapsed. Perhaps if we want to see a resurgence in peal ringing we might want to stop treating ringing as a solely cerebral exercise and welcome young ringers who regard it differently.

fully agree
Worryingly … I’ve seen some quarter peal opportunities going this way

Lots of interesting comments! While on the 'pro' side there's little doubt that peal ringing pushes the best ringers to even higher standards, and therefore one hopes peal ringing never dies out, there seems to be much more on the 'con' side. Encouraging the best to get better is useful to ringing generally only if the best ringers use their experience and skill to help other ringers improve. Simon Linford has always pushed this point, and in my experience nearly all the best ringers in Australia, New Zealand and North America do indeed contribute a lot in this respect, but the record of English ringers in particular is much less good. The upper levels in England seem to be drifting off to form their own tight-knit group that does not encourage others to join and does not pull its weight in teaching and helping the lower levels of ringing - a gross generalization and a big thankyou to the numerous exceptions.

Quite apart from this, the point is made at every RW AGM that RW relies heavily on BellBoard donations, which are at high levels from QP ringers but low levels from peal ringers - not a good look.

Moreover, peals generate a disproportionately high level of complaints. Some contributors have suggested that bad striking is the main cause of complaints, but I suspect that ringing that just goes on and on is what annoys more than anything else - something especially relevant given that 2030 is promoting improved public awareness of and positive attitudes towards ringing.

So my conclusion is that I'm pretty ok with the fact that peal ringing is (a) continuing but (b) declining.

I wonder if we really have many ringers in the category "ready to move on from bob minor". I can only think of a 4 such ringers in my rural Devon Branch (1 youngster & 3 adults). The reality is that only 3 towers out of 20 affiliated Branch towers undertake any method ringing on a practice night. Of those 4 ringers ready to move on, only 1 can currently afford the time to attend other practices in order to progress.

The opportunities to ring at focused practices (such as triples, plain major, S6 & S8) are available and the encouragement and mentorship of those who want to move on is in place but sadly those who reach the level of bob minor are few and far between.

To be honest it is rare we have a youngster in rural Devon who reaches the "ready to move on from bob minor" stage. When we do encounter someone who wants to advance, ringers from the Devon method community are keen to be involved in helping their progress - with invites to QP days, to city practices where more advanced ringing takes place, to additional S8 & S6 practices and invites in peals.

I wonder if there is any need to set up a structured scheme when branch practices mentorship and opportunities are already in place. But perhaps in areas where there is more change ringing taking place, there may be issues in identifying and matching those who want to advance to the practices which are suitable for their progression and to meeting ringers who will aid their progression.

you raise a good point on progression.
I think the lack of a “career path” a stumbling block to a lot of people

ART have their levels and other schemes have other milestones. But it’s down to the teacher currently to use a teaching framework.
In my tower, people don’t see progress because the whole band has issues, some lack commitment but ultimately they’re is nothing to look up to

We need role models for ringing

I think the lack of a “career path” a stumbling block to a lot of people. ART have their levels and other schemes have other milestones. But it’s down to the teacher currently to use a teaching framework. — Martyn Bristow

ART is great for getting people to handle a bell. There are a series of clear steps, with a purpose and success criteria for each. With training & practice it's easy for teachers to spot issues and give feedback, because it's a visible, physical task. However when it comes to "Learning Methods", teaching gets much more difficult. Not only does bell control have to improve markedly, much of the new skillset that's required is internal - ropesight, counting places etc - and that's far harder to teach and observe.

The usual approach is "Now learn Plain Bob" but Plain Bob is a poor choice of teaching method; although it seems trivial to ring to experienced ringers, it needs multiple new skills to ring properly. We need to be teaching the new skills individually and specifically first. Want to give people practice at coming on and off the lead accurately? Treble to Bastow. Want to help with ropesight & place counting? Single Court Minimus. Want to give them dodging and place making practice? Double Oxford front work. The exact tools used don't matter, what's important is breaking the process down into smaller steps and providing lots of repetitions in a short space of time, just like we do with bell handling. @Phil Ramsbottom has already said this in detail and more eloquently that I can.

There also needs to be theory training, away from a rope. Not "How to learn method X", but "How to learn methods". I ran a course for our tower earlier this year, the aim was to demystify the terminology, explain why ringing by place is needed rather than by bell number and to give people a "theory toolkit" they could dip back into as they progressed. For one ringer the lightbulb was that methods share a lot of common "phrases" and that once you've learned them, you can reuse them. There's a lot that's taken as read by experienced method ringers that isn't immediately obvious to people starting out method ringing.

In my tower, people don’t see progress because the whole band has issues, some lack commitment but ultimately they’re is nothing to look up to. We need role models for ringing — Martyn Bristow

The game changer for our band was asking people to learn Single Court Minimus before practice, and then successfully getting through it after about half an hour of trying. Yes it's not hard but it was the first thing other than PH the band had rung, and it was done without outside help. The confidence boost that gave people was huge, because it showed that method ringing was something we could actually aspire to. After that people started turning up with blue lines printed out, they wanted homework and so on. I think the benefits of giving people a sense of achievement and ongoing progress are difficult to underestimate. In our case we didn't really have any choice as we don't have a method band so there was no possibility of slotting people individually into a solid band.

The issue of role models is an interesting one. We've had a number of external training events at our tower, with ringers at the Surprise level, Although we've invited band members to attend, it hasn't been a huge success. The two adjectives I heard the most were "daunting" and "patronising", and nobody is going to do their best under those circumstances, even if their feelings are unfounded. On the other hand, we recently had a family of three visiting ringers turn up unannounced on a Sunday which meant we could ring CCs on 8, and with their support the band rang their socks off in terms of striking - we found out afterwards that one of the ringers was a 1000+ pealer. The main difference between the two occasions was expectations, not the visitors, so the dynamics of "outside help" can be a tricky thing to get right.