Ringing Forums

The next article has not been published yet…. I can post here once it is.

You're absolutely right John. You haven't missed it because I haven't written it yet! Been quite busy unfortunately. I often write the first part of a series before I have thought about the rest of it, unlike other authors who will have written a multi part series in advance. When I wrote the Zone articles all those years ago I had now idea where they were headed!

I also wanted to respond to any subsequent correspondence that followed, and of course Lucy added to the debate with her letter. There has been other discussion but I think you're also right in saying that in terms of the discussion in this Forum it's probably been done.

So yes I'll work on it, without promising that you'll like the answer.

You're absolutely right John. You haven't missed it because I haven't written it yet! — Simon Linford

Thanks Simon, I looked at the online contents and there's a "Great Expectations" article also by you in the current issue and I didn't know if that was the followup or not :smile:

As for liking the answer or not, I'm just happy that you are talking about the issues, much of the ringing community seem to be sleepwalking towards the abyss. As I said, I agree with your assessment of the current situation and although there perhaps might be disagreement about steps forward, without acceptance of the issues there can't even be that. So thank you, and Lucy, for using your voices to make it more visible, I for one appreciate it,

I'm just happy that you are talking about the issues, much of the ringing community seem to be sleepwalking towards the abyss. — John de Overa

Yes, I agree. I think that we are in an 'information vacuum'! I haven't heard anything about Ringing 2030 through my association except from the report of our only CC rep who attending the meeting in Sheffiled. (some absences due to work comittments.) There is no energy or interest!
I have been trying to champion Ringing 2030 in my district, posting articles in the newsltter and talking about it at every opportunity, but sadly no-one is listening.
Simon's Red Zone article in the RW is spot on. I mentioned this at our business meeting last Saturday. Many ringers are loyal SS ringers but don't necessarilly have ambition (or time and commitment, or interest) to advance into ringing other than basic methods.
New ringers coming in see call changes and plain bob rung badly and think thats this is what ringing is about. They have few opportunitities or encouragement to see and hear good ringing! Of course I'm speaking generally but overall I think this is where we are.
I'm a Red Zone ringer (or was!) with 60 years ringing experience, and would dearly love to give away my knowledge. But its experience too that makes ringers and that takes time, and time is something we haven't got.
I risk assessed my tower. We are all over mid-60s and into our 70s. Under current cisrcumstances I've given our tower 5 years of ringing remaining!! Let's hope it much longer!

I risk assessed my tower. We are all over mid-60s and into our 70s. Under current cisrcumstances I've given our tower 5 years of ringing remaining!! Let's hope it much longer! — Phillip George

We've grown from 4 to 8 service ringers over the last couple of years (not counting COVID), plus a couple of regular practice visitors. That's all adults, the majority between 50 & 70. A couple are returning ringers who hadn't rung for decades, the rest are new ringers. We are seriously thinking about how the tower band could ring a QP, for the first time in at least 50 years. Will the current ringers ever be a Red Zone band? Perhaps not, but if we can keep the band moving forwards and provide a good "seed bed", perhaps the next generation will be.

We haven't done anything special - no huge recruitment drives etc. But we have agreed as a band that we want to learn and get better together, which we have. That's developed a virtuous circle where people have a sense of achievement, increased enjoyment, broadened horizons and a desire for more of the same.

That's developed a virtuous circle where people have a sense of achievement, increased enjoyment, broadened horizons and a desire for more of the same. — John de Overa

Well done, a very positive approach. Good luck.

we have agreed as a band that we want to learn and get better together, — John de Overa

I think that’s is fundamental. One of the commonest reasons I hear for why bands don’t achieve much is that they aren’t interested in progressing. That’s normally couched in terms of not wanting to learn fancy methods but in practice i think it imbues everything, including even ringing simple methods well. And once the collective mindset is established it affects new ringers who either adopt it themselves or leave.

That’s normally couched in terms of not wanting to learn fancy methods but in practice i think it imbues everything, including even ringing simple methods well. And once the collective mindset is established it affects new ringers who either adopt it themselves or leave. — John Harrison

Yes, I've rung in such towers. People who were asked help, not to take over but just to quietly support the band, were pushed aside.

I think there's another potential reason, but it can be difficult to distinguish from the scenario you describe. It's a combination of lack of knowledge, fear of failure and of being made to look inadequate.

When I started ringing my home tower the remaining handful of ringers, who were in their 70s & 80s, had been ringing CCs for decades and had never been exposed to "quality" ringing. To the then-TCs credit, his attitude was if he could at least keep the bells ringing there was the opportunity for things improve. He was a major force behind our rehang and when the time came he stood aside gracefully for the new TC. He still comes to all our social events and has an occasional ring with us, along with the other ringer who helped keep the bells going for decades. We owe them both an immense debt of gratitude and I think it's a good illustration of how people can make a significant contribution to ringing, whatever level they are at.

Not too sure who these absent "Great and The Good" are. The 10 most prolific peal ringers in Guild Of Devonshire Ringers for 2025 include the Guild Secretary, Guild Treasurer, Peal Secretary, DAC Bell Advisor, Report Editor, Guild Master (outgoing), Devon Ringers Council Chairman, several Central Council Reps, one of our Bell Advisors, several Devon Church Bellfund Trustees and the co-editor of Ringing Round Devon. Many also hold branch officer positions. Whilst we do ring a lot of peals, we are out most nights of the week teaching new ringers and supporting local ringers on their ringing journey,

Go along to Exeter Cathedral Society you will find that the majority of members are tower captains in their home tower and/or are actively teaching new ringers, most members hold a Branch or Guild Officer role.

Perhaps in Devon it helps that most of our Branches are small (none greater than 125 members) and because there are so few opportunities to ring method in your home tower practice, the support for Branch activities and practices by the experienced ringers is high.

I'm not saying we've got it right, but we are very aware how important our Devon ringing community is and how important communication is. We have the excellent Ringing Round Devon publication which showcases activities and achievements across the county.

Devon is a county where only a handful of towers can regularly ring surprise major on a practice night with their home band. I don't see this as a weakness, or a sign of ill health in ringing. This actually strengthens our community because we have to come together from all over the county to ring method.

I think this is probably reflective of a lot of other areas of the country. Certainly the ringers I see at Central Council are doing all sorts of great things around the country.

Are you really sure "The Great and Good" aren't supporting ringing on the ground. If you know one who isn’t then why not invite them into your tower or branch practice?

I've gone back to look at Simon's article. I would say there is a problem lower down than the red zone.

One of our big problems in my branch in Devon is aiding the progression of ringers who become competent at bob doubles. There are plenty of opportunities through joint branch practices and qps to ring S6 and S8 but way less opportunities to move on from bob doubles. In our branch, we have a monthly "triples and plain major practice" and from last month we have added a "plain minor" monthly practice and spoken to and encouraged all ringers we think will benefit to attend. The practices will be supplemented with qp opportunities.

Whilst I'm sure people are going to respond and say monthly isn't enough. But that's the resources we have to work with. Only 1 tower within our Branch can field a band of bob triples from its members, and there's only a handful that can ring bob doubles on a tower practice night.

We award a certificate to ringers who attain the level to ring 120 changes on a moving bell without any verbal instruction or anyone standing behind. We are now looking at the certificate data from the last 10 years. Which branches are these ringers in? What can we do to increase those numbers and what can we do help those ringers onwards in their journey.

Yes, I agree. I think that we are in an 'information vacuum'! I haven't heard anything about Ringing 2030 through my association except from the report of our only CC rep who attending the meeting in Sheffiled. (some absences due to work comittments.) There is no energy or interest! — Phillip George

Same in my Guild, except that the Central Council Representatives have not even reported back to the Guild yet.

Wearing another hat, my mobile belfries one, we wrote to 20 Guilds and Associations back in August abut helping with four large jamborees next year, which were in their area, or adjacent. Only two responded to the initial e-mail, one negatively. Six weeks ago we chased the other eighteen, pointing to the objectives of Ringing 2030 and the ability to reach out to thousands of young people. Just over half have now responded, although in many cases the response is that they have passed our request down to Branch/District secretaries, even though we were asking for a strategic commitment from each Guild/Association. Therefore I'm not confident that much will happen.

If the officers and CC Reps in Guilds and Associations don't get behind Ringing 2030, is it going to succeed, or just hit the buffers as similar initiatives to address our demographic time bomb have done so often in the past?

I would say there is a problem lower down than the red zone. — Charlotte Boyce

I agree. There's a big barrier between ringing plain bob doubles/minor inside and Cambridge minor inside, and you need to be able to practice it weekly with a strong band, not a few minutes once a month. There's a missing generation of ringers resulting in a squeezed middle, so fewer and fewer opportunities to do this. I see this everywhere in my travels around the country.

Many of the newer ringers are in their 40's and 50's and are early retired, working from home or are empty nesters looking for something interesting to take up. They are keen and prepared to pay, as evidenced by the success of the Mancroft and St Clement's Cambridge teaching centres, and demand for the new residential ringing courses in the Northwest and Southwest, which are three times over-subscribed with these people.

However many of the old timers learnt as teenagers, so learnt much more quickly and they can be impatient with the newer ringers, expecting them to do things before they have mastered the basics, which does not work. Many also often just ring as a service to their church, so are not interested in ringing elsewhere, or progressing further.

As benefices become larger and services in village churches become less frequent, village bands ring less often and I fear for the survival of these bands. Round here several have collapsed since before Covid. Many of the remaining village tower captains are people who have been in post for decades, doing everything themselves. Others are people who have needed to take over from one of these long standing tower captains who are no longer able to ring, and there is no one else left in the band willing to take over.

Training up and getting the enthusiastic newer ringers into these roles is of paramount importance and could make a huge difference. It was really pleasing this week when two of my Ring for the King learners invited me to attend a Plain Bob Minor training session which they were organising!

There are plenty of opportunities through joint branch practices and qps to ring S6 and S8 but way less opportunities to move on from bob doubles. — Charlotte Boyce

Your association sounds like it's well-organised and active, many aren't, including most of the ones I'm surrounded by, so the situation is far worse elsewhere. The ringing community is pretty good at getting people up to PB level, but it generally falls apart after that. There are a number of reasons, I think a significant one is that getting people up to PB can still be done by individual towers whereas red zone training increasingly can't be done by most individual towers. That is where associations / CC should be stepping in, but mostly they aren't. I'm excluding the traditional monthly practices, I'm talking about targeted training in the same way as we teach the earlier stages.

Whilst I'm sure people are going to respond and say monthly isn't enough. But that's the resources we have to work with. Only 1 tower within our Branch can field a band of bob triples from its members, and there's only a handful that can ring bob doubles on a tower practice night. — Charlotte Boyce

We wouldn't expect people to learn to ring with just one lesson a month, I'm mystified as to why it's assumed that much more complicated skills can be gained with only 1/4 of the opportunities to practice them. I understand the challenges, but as someone who started ringing relatively recently and not as a youngster, it's absolutely no surprise that people stall around the PB level.

If the officers and CC Reps in Guilds and Associations don't get behind Ringing 2030, is it going to succeed, or just hit the buffers as similar initiatives to address our demographic time bomb have done so often in the past? — Roger Booth

Unfortunately I think there's already enough evidence to say it's doomed, at least in its current form. I think if there's a role for the CC it's coordinating advanced tutoring in areas where associations are struggling, and providing training that's specifically targeted at moving people into the red zone. I though the "Cast of 1000" idea had real merit, I'm not sure why it never got any momentum. And the training doesn't have to involve getting 6 or 8 Surprise ringers in a tower, there could be much more use of 1:1 training using simulators, for example. For the first time in at least 50 years my home tower is seriously ringing a QP, in preparation one of the potential ringers had a session ringing Grandsire Doubles on the sim this week. I expected it to take a couple of months before she could ring inside to a touch, she did it in the first, admittedly intense, session.

I agree. There's a big barrier between ringing plain bob doubles/minor inside and Cambridge minor inside, and you need to be able to practice it weekly with a strong band, not a few minutes once a month. There's a missing generation of ringers resulting in a squeezed middle, so fewer and fewer opportunities to do this. I see this everywhere in my travels around the country. — Roger Booth

As a citizen of the squeezed middle, I can confirm you are exactly right. The biggest boost to my ringing was COVID. I was the keyholder / caretaker / clock winder for the church and as there were no practices to go to, rather than sitting around for 70 minutes and ringing for 20 once a week at a practice, I'd walk to the church several times a week in my "outdoors time" and ring continuously for 30 - 60 minutes on the simulator. I went in to Lockdown ringing PB Minor, I came out ringing Cambridge Minor, and Major not too long afterwards.

Perversely, I spent a lot more time on the end of a rope during COVID than I did before, that helped my "skills package" immensely which means that learning new red zone methods has become relatively easy. There's a big "hump" getting into the red zone, many of the new skills are internal and therefore much harder to teach than things such as handling, where the trainer can directly observe problems. As someone who is trying to help people up the ladder below me, we spend much more time in 2-way communication than we did at the earlier stages.

Many of the newer ringers are in their 40's and 50's and are early retired, working from home ... keen and prepared to pay ... demand for the new residential ringing courses in the Northwest and Southwest, which are three times over-subscribed — Roger Booth

You are precisely describing my situation.

However I don't think the ringing courses are going to fix the problem on their own, comments I've heard from people who tutor at them is they are seeing the same people come back each year, having made no progress between courses as they don't have regular opportunities to ring at that level - a point you've already made. And the courses aren't advanced enough to fix the red zone problem either - last time I registered I dropped out because it was suggested that I should go as a support ringer, and when I looked at the NW course this year, I was already beyond what was being offered.

they can be impatient with the newer ringers, expecting them to do things before they have mastered the basics, which does not work. — Roger Booth

I think that's very true. From talking to advanced ringers who learned when they were young, one thing that seems common was they were borderline obsessive-compulsive about it, ringing multiple times a week and getting a lot of rope time. It just takes time to get any good.

Training up and getting the enthusiastic newer ringers into these roles is of paramount importance and could make a huge difference. It was really pleasing this week when two of my Ring for the King learners invited me to attend a Plain Bob Minor training session which they were organising! — Roger Booth

I bet :smile: And you are right, capitalising on enthusiasm of new ringers is key. When I started ringing, my home tower had just 4 regular ringers, zero involvement with the association and the band couldn't get past back rounds in PH5 without a fire up. We are now ringing on all 8 regularly, we are all members of the association, we host and go to branch practices and we have regular tower outings as a band. That's been achieved with a mix of new and "returning" ringers and rather than being a tower that needed support from the outside, we now have learners from other towers coming to ring with us. None of that has happened overnight and I doubt we'll be ringing Cambridge any time soon, but the enthusiasm is there across the band and as a result the trajectory is in the right direction.

I spent a lot more time on the end of a rope during COVID — John de Overa

So did I. I learnt Zanussi. Having a dumbbell and simulator at home meant I could fit in a course whenever I had a spares 20 minutes.

We wouldn't expect people to learn to ring with just one lesson a month, I'm mystified as to why it's assumed that much more complicated skills can be gained with only 1/4 of the opportunities to practice them. I understand the challenges, but as someone who started ringing relatively recently and not as a youngster, it's absolutely no surprise that people stall around the PB level. — John de Overa

My comment isn't exactly on point but its relevant to the general approach to ringing. It starts at the very begining! We recently had a tower open session (10.00am to midday). Twenty visitors plus 7 local ringers. Pleasant morning chiming bells, drinking tea and eating cake etc. Two people said they would like to learn. We invited them to our next practice nght. One didn't turn up!
The other was very interested and attended, and we gve him a taster at backstroke and handstroke.
After the practice he stayed on and we talked at length about what was involved. I tell it how it is - committment, weekly training sessions plus attending the practice night, and then every practice night plus Sundays, and any other opportunities we can give because you can't learn ringing unless you are there (barrings hols / planned absence etc). (Also, we ask for a donation to the tower facility which didn't phase him at all.)
But here's the rub - as teachers we have to be the resource for our ringers and mentor them until they can stand on their own two feet. I'm afraid many TCs leave their learners to their own devices who are then trapped in poorly rung CCs or PB5. Of course, a lot depends on their individual enthusiasm for ringing and we are quite happy to have CC and PB5 ringers in our team.
Our potential new recruit was very happy with our approach but said up front that he couldn't commit until next year because of his business interests. We agreed to be in touch again at that time.
I would much rather have no learner than someone who isn't going to commit.

The ringing community is pretty good at getting people up to PB level, but it generally falls apart after that — John de Overa

I think one of the reasons is that ‘up to Bob Doubles’ on the mental front isn’t accompanied by the range of competences needed to ‘ring a method’. They can just about struggle through PB5 without those skills, but add an extra bell to the mix, or an extra feature to navigate, and they can’t cope.

Our potential new recruit was very happy with our approach but said up front that he couldn't commit until next year because of his business interests. We agreed to be in touch again at that time. I would much rather have no learner than someone who isn't going to commit. — Phillip George

We have asked people to wait if we didn't feel we had the capacity at the time to help them make good progress, e.g. because we had existing learners at the early stages. It's seemed to work well for us. And we've gently turned people away who we didn't think had a reasonable chance of success, for a number of different reasons.

I think one of the reasons is that ‘up to Bob Doubles’ on the mental front isn’t accompanied by the range of competences needed to ‘ring a method’. They can just about struggle through PB5 without those skills, but add an extra bell to the mix, or an extra feature to navigate, and they can’t cope. — John Harrison

You are spot on there, I nearly gave up once I'd got to the blag-my-way-through-PB5-by-bell-number stage and realised what was needed to progress any further. I had to go back to basics and greatly improve my existing skills, as well as learning the new ones I required. In retrospect I think that might have been avoided, at least in part. The people climbing up the ladder in our tower still spend quite a bit of time improving their core skills such as striking and listening skills on the sim. That really pays off when they are trying something challenging as the core skills they need are much more "on autopilot".